Why isn't the 351C more popular in Cobras?

[Cobrabill]

Sigh...........rumors & folklore.

The 4V Cleveland was a stinker of a street motor.Ports were way to big.The 2V was limited to a 2bbl from the factory(but Edelbrock fixed that)"Mis-use"(if you will) pushed more "attention" to the Windsor.The Windsor has much more available in the way of intake tract choices today.Once the oiling issue in the Cleveland is rectified,they are a great engine,but combination choice is critical.

Back a few years my GF had a 73 Bronco that someone had stuffed a Cleveland(2V)into.That thing was a handfull.

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

Compare the price and power to a Roush 427, and there's no comparison. Right now one of the sticking points is finding an intake that makes really good power, yet fits under the stock Cobra hood. As long as we're on the subject, and of you Cleveland guys have any ideas on that?

I don't know if that's the case or not. Look at the components Roush is using (Dart block, AFR heads etc...) and compare that price to a 351C using the same stuff and I am sure you would be in the same ball park if not higher than the Roush mill. Stack a 2 year 24k warranty on top of that and I think the Roush motor comes out on top. 15k for a Roush 427R with a warranty is a good deal IMO.

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by SP01715

. 15k for a Roush 427R with a warranty is a good deal IMO.

Indeed!This is what happens when $$$$ & time get thrown into R&D.The Roush piece really can't be beat for $ vs HP(unless you want a BB).But a correctly done(read that as $$$$) Cleveland is still a stout piece.

[spl310]

Originally Posted by Cobrabill

Sigh...........rumors & folklore.

The 4V Cleveland was a stinker of a street motor.

I would have to disagree with that. They did have huge sewer pipes for ports, but once you got the air moving, they hauled the mail!! I know of a few 71 - 73 Mustangs (the big boys) that would FLY with the 351C 4V engines and they were not that modified. They would certainly do more than a similarly prepped 351W...

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by spl310

I would have to disagree with that. They did have huge sewer pipes for ports, but once you got the air moving, they hauled the mail!! I know of a few 71 - 73 Mustangs (the big boys) that would FLY with the 351C 4V engines and they were not that modified. They would certainly do more than a similarly prepped 351W...

"Waiting for the air to get moving" gets you beat on the street.No arguement about them once that happens but the 4Vs weren't that successfull on the street.

[Dwight]

The Cleveland has 2 3/4" mains which allows it to turn higher rpms. The Windsor has 3" mains which will see 20% more fiction than the 2 3/4" main. The Cleveland had bad oiling problems. The 4 v heads are to large for street. The best of both worlds is a Windsor block with 2 3/4" mains ( spacer kit from Ford or a World Class bock). 7500 rpms and no oiling problems. There is a great selection of aluminum heads for the Windsor but not the Cleveland. They manufactured the Cleveland from 1970 to 1974. The Windsor from 1969 to 1996. The cheaper of the two would be the Windsor.

Dwight

[767Jockey]

Guys, I'm not trying to push the Cleveland over a Windsor or an FE. That's up to you guys what to use. Last thing I want to do is start another pissin' match over what engine is better. In the end that usually ends up being just a waste of bandwidth. I was more interested in asking why the 351C is so uncommon, especially give the huge advances made with the engine the last 5 years or so.

For those of you who may not be aware, the Cleveland always had a reputation, mostly deserved, of having ports that were, believe it or not, simply too big. It wouldn't wake up until you revved it way up. The biggest thing to come along in the Cleveland world now are stroker kits. This explanation is a vast oversimplification, but in general terms the bigger engine size resulting from the stroker kit now has the engine size grown to match the head ports. The flow velocities are way up, and the performance of the engine is just unreal. Again, that's a vastly oversimplified explanation, but in general that's what the deal is. I'm told that no engine responds to a stroker kit like a Cleveland, given the right cam and marriage of other components, of course. I've talked extensively with both Keith Craft and Scott at Reincarnation Automotive out in Washington State. Both had great things to say about the Cleveland. It's an exciting alternative to the same old same old.

For those of you who have a Windsor or an FE, heck, there's nothing at all wrong with that. If you're still undecided about an engine, give the 351C a look. It's amazing what they've done with this thing. The power potential is awesome. It's a great LOOKING engine, too.

[Excaliber]

Looks better than a 'boring' 351W!

Always nice to pop the hood and see something different.

[Jac Mac]

The only problem I have with the 'plain jane' 351c that I assume we are talking about here is the cyl wall thickness. Longer rods helped to a degree with these (6" as opposed to 5.78") but at the end of the day it was always like skating on thin ice. All the oiling, cooling, ex port problems etc were fixable, but the cyl wall deal was always waiting to get you.

Jac Mac

[olddog]

The one thing that has puzzled me about the 351C is the HP that Ford advertised. Around 380 hp for the boss 351C, if my memory is right. This being gross not SAE net like today.

So with a radical cam that came in this engine and a set of heads that is claimed to breath too well for the street, why not more HP?

Exhaust manifold have it all choked up?

I do think that if the Boss 351C had been available at the same price and time as a 428 FE, the 427 Cobra would have never been.

[Cobrabill]

As good a motor the Cleveland is once the kinks are out of it,it's about the same weight as a 427/428 FE.And there really is no comparing the two.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by Cobrabill

As good a motor the Cleveland is once the kinks are out of it,it's about the same weight as a 427/428 FE.And there really is no comparing the two.

Are they really the same weight? I didn't know that. Does anyone have any actual factual weight figures for a cast iron FE, a cast iron Cleveland and a cast iron Windsor? I'd be curious to see what the actual figures are.

[767Jockey]

http://www.bacomatic.org/%7Edw/txt/engfyi.htm

According to the above website, the Windsor weighs about 510-525 lbs. The Cleveland comes in about 25 lbs heavier at 550 lbs., while the FE weighs in considerably more at 650 - 670 lbs. Obviously the use of aluminum heads and manifold can reduce these weights considerably.

[cobrabobby]

JacMac is quite correct warning of cylinder wall thickness. Uneven thickness
problems occured with core shift in production of these. A .030 overbore is
usually safe and it would be wise to sonic check before machining any of
these. The "oiling issues" being repeatedly spoken of are only valid if one
plans on revving past 6k for extended periods. A simple restrictor fix at
build time and minimal expense/time will yeild an acceptable fix. The design
was suspect on priorities of oiling. Would not be a problem with a street
motor unless overreving is in your plans. Yes they are heavier than a W but
not by much. A serious builder of one of these light cars could make up the
difference elsewhere. Depends on what you want to use the car for. Can't
think a 20-50 lb difference would matter on the street with one of these cars.
Bob T.

[lovehamr]

I like my 372ci Clevor. The much worked iron heads flow 335cfm in the intake side at .700 and the exhaust flows 175cfm at the same lift with no turbulence. All though that is a somewhat low ratio you would have to step up to some pretty big W type heads to come even close to that. I'd love to try my stoker set-up with CHI heads. My engine is in a Boss302 which is my main reason for having a Clevor type motor. For being "not good on the street" those big heads and the displcement yank my big 3500# Mustang around pretty darn well, so I can imagine what it would do in a 2000# Cobra. You can check my gallery for pics. Sorry but you'll have to wade through the pictures of women and Bosses and all that other stuff to. LOL


Steve

[rdorman]

I have really enjoyed the clevelands since my first one over thirty years ago. My cleveland mustang was faster then my 390 mustang (sure, there is some apples to oranges there). The clevor combo is a great combo if you want big cubes and is basically what the nascar boys run (yes, I know they don't run big cubes!). The canted valve arrangement is a basically supperior arrangement. Look at the 335, 385 and chevy big blocks. The exhaust ports did suffer because of packaging but with all the new heads available (half a dozen different choices including a four valve head... yes, 32 valve 'cleveland') I wouldn't bother with all the vintage heads. By the time you get the HP (650?) you are talking about you would probably have as much in the old heads as a nice new set of aluminum out of the box. Plus you will be able to make more power with less cam (a lot has changed in 40 years!). The cleveland was heavier but that was largely due to the heads since they are so massive (plus some of the block beefing). A FE valve cover is to small to fit on them! Go to aluminum and the weight difference goes away (again apples and oranges). 'Stock' crank, block, and rods properly prepared are good for just about any power output you like and live reliably at 7000 rpms (much more rpm with extensive modifications on the block and crank... above that forget the stock rods). Personally, I think they are the best looking small block pushrod motor to ever come out of detroit.

There are lots of good reasons for a Windsor as well. But unless I was trying to be 'correct' to original, my small block choice is cleveland based.

[Manowar]

http://www.theengineshop.com/prods_p...rateEngine.htm

Scoop clearance may be an issue on some Cobras unless modified.

[lovehamr]

Manowar,
Now this gives me a stiffy!!!!!!!!!!!!


Steve

[Manowar]

Ah,
Your avatar accomplishes the same phenomenon....

[rdorman]

A 460 cubic inch, 375 pound (not a typo and weight, not foot pounds... that is 610), 625 HP, pump gas street tune 'cleveland'... now there is some wood!