Going by the 375Ibs weight for the alloy 9.5" deck cleveland and big cubes 625bhp, that must make my alloy Yates headed windsor with 9.2" deck block lighter, I wonder what they weighing I guess complete from Carb to sump, with water pump and none of the other ancilliaries like alternater etc?
My engine is 373 can run to 8000rpm, puts out 675bhp at 7200rpm and 566ft Ibs torque at 5500rpm, I hope its going to take a bit of beating!!!!!
Of course any engine run to 8000 IS going to take a beating, no way around that. It's just a matter of how many times it can do that before something lets go, maybe lots of time! Starting perhaps with valve springs? Not being negative, just recognizing that thats some lofty rpms!
Lovehmr,
I do think your Clevor is too cool for words. By the way,
those studded Motorsports valve covers are getting very
rare. Very pricy on Ebay if you can find a pair. That 372
would sure look fine in a Cobra engine bay. I'm jealous!!
Bob T.
I think that with any engine comparison we need to look at the intended purpose. Max HP numbers don't do much for me, unless we are talking about a race car/motor. If most of you guys are running your cars on the street, then low to mid range tourqe and HP is what I would be looking at. My brother has a Boss 351 in a Boss 302 car and on the street, it does not perform too well. Get that thing to 5000 RPM and look out!
I'm building a 428 SCJ for a GT500 and I had to resist going to a .500 lift cam. The reality is that for my street car, a mild cam with good numbers up to say 5500 RPM is the power range I want. Will my FE rev to 7000 RPM and make great power? No, but that is fine by me. Why spend all the money for a HP range that will seldom be seen by most of us on the street?
So that being said, will you get good low and mid range numbers out of a cleveland? Street driven, the cleveland may not be the best choice.
For a race motor, I like it!
MC
Cobra Make, Engine: Unique 427 roadster with 351C-4B
Posts: 5,129
Not Ranked
I hear you and to a certain extent completely agree. But lets do talk torque. The man'o'war engine is putting out well over 500 ft lbs down in the 3's and peaks at 4300. My 351 4V motor makes 90% of torque from 2000 (where they started recording) up past 5500. Nice and flat if you ask me. Sure, it really comes on strong in the last bit of RPM but it is a terrific driving motor in my Cobra. Tons of torque in a Cobra could be considered a liability in a car that is so traction limited (in general with weight, tire choices and IRS factors like mine). For a 'heavy' solid axle car like a Mustang, I would definiately be looking for more torque. I have owned a number of 1970 and prior models.
__________________
Proud owner of Shelby Cobra "Tribute" car!
Cobra Make, Engine: Lone Star Classics Silver w/ Black 351 C
Posts: 129
Not Ranked
What cam are you running?
Hey rdorman... I have a Crower 15381 in my cleveland. It does not kick in troque until well past 3K rpm. Then watch out. The lift specs are .592 / .607 with duration of 298 / 306.
I think my message was worded wrong by "beating" I meant, hard to get past!!!!
Regarding rpms I couldnt agree more with you guys, revs kill engines, and okay my engine has got heaps of hp and torque, albeit higher up in the range, I am hoping there is a bit down around 4000rpm, but I intend on keeping the revs down even when racing to around 7000 max, as 8000rpm is a bit lofty, and reduces the life of parts.
Maybe in a few more years when I have racing out of my system a bit, I may look at a bigger cube less rev combination for this car, so it can be more streetable! When my engine or the parts came available, the cost wasnt a lot more for some real good race bits, and I seemed to ignore the fact that this is a dual purpose car to be used on the road.....!
Dreams are free mate, I will down size it to hard to get in front in a straight line compared to a street cobra!
When you throw in the a few corners it makes it more difficult, especially with some of the highly modified stuff out there, like the quite heavy Blue XW/XY Falcon with the very very strong 351C in the Super Gts!!!!!!!
Yep that car has got some serious mumbo, TVR can just about foot it with him but F/glass comes off second best when you get into the ' Rubbing's Racing' stuff. I look forward to your track debut with your new toy. To the USA guys that dont have a clue what we are on about, imagine a mixed field like this- 70 Boss 302 Mustang, 911 Porsche,BMW M3, 74 Camaro( 7litre+), Corvettes,72 GTHO Falcon(Aust) 65> Mustang Fastbacks GW equipped, Turbo Sierras, Cologne Capri's, Turbo Nissan's, Holden Monaro's all being driven like there is no tomorrow. The Falcon seemed to have the measure of most this year, but not by much. Sorry for the thread drift ,but as a few of these cars are 351c powered there must be some life in the old 335 series yet.
The 351C seems to be reliable in a race series, I dont know what the in between meeting maintainance is, or whether you could go a whole (eg 6 meetings) season, and if everything went smoothly, like no over rpms etc, before doing a freshen up!
Another point with a serious mumbo engine is even if its in a heavy car, like a Falcon as compared to a Cobra the weight doesnt seem to hamper it that much, plus the Falcon being a bit longer in the wheel base than a Cobra, may help to put all this canted valve big hp to the ground. I think that car was running Dunlop slicks, whereas the Shelby GT350 GW plus engines had grooved slightly less race dedicated tires. Like a lot of historic style racing the powers that be are trying to put a cap on modifications, tires etc, I dont rate myself as being in the league of these guys with their budgets equipement etc, but with me using a Yates headed windsor engine I guess its still within the spririt of the original concept, and going with the Jerico five speed should be okay, as some of those cars have 6 speed sequential Hollinger race boxes and approaching 900bhp like the Monaro!
I sort of think at times I should have stuck with the original idea of an all alloy FE 427 of around 550-600bhp through a nice TL 4 speed, but the Reynard space frame doesnt lend itself to that large engine, and it wasnt that easy to fit this great wide headed engine in the hole either!!!! Drive ability may suffer with my choice as Yates heads and low down power dont seem to be in the same sentence, but I guess I dont have to drive it hard all the time, and doing 3000- 3500rpm down the highway should be okay on a fun basis!
Excuse me for digressing a bit toward racing etc but thats what the 351C and Cobra is all about!
With regard to the maintainance etc I dont see why a full season + should be a problem. Given our experience with the TVR engine which has now completed its 4th season in the SFOS series, a total of 12 meetings plus testing. Leakdown @ end of each season, inspect filters, remove rockers after oildown stop & check lobe lift. Valvelash & inspect valve springs each meeting along with ign timing . Thats about it.
I have had similar results from ex Nascar 355 motors in T/A type cars . One of these was Dyno tested at 800+ Hp before being shipped out, gave excellent service for 2 seasons before a link bar on the roller lifters failed.
If you are on top of any cooling/lubrication problems it makes life easier, but dont let your guard down in the valvetrain area, keep looking & checking.
Thanks for that information, makes good sense regarding valve spring inspection is that a visual?
A guy in Ashburton owned the PDL Falcon (converted to a road car) it had a 400 Cleveland, but from memory didnt do anything much, sort of a truck engine!
My car goes down to Timaru Saturday for fabrication of rear arms and pickup points (I piked out on doing it myself) will let Alan Dunn have a go at that, I dont seem to make as much progress nowadays, but thats mainly due to not wanting to fix balls-ups!
Getting back to clevelands, at one stage I considered a Fontana cleveland block, as I have read very good reports on these, but it was easier to get a Nascar based engine, I did buy a Dart aluminium 9.2 windsor block, which some engine builders in NZ seem to be a bit scared of due to distortion, but put together properly they are very good and capable of high hp etc.
Cobra Make, Engine: 427 Cobra re-creation based on Kirkham aluminum body and chassis, Original 1965 Ford 427 Side Oiler and Ford Toploader transmission
Posts: 247
Not Ranked
Quote:
Originally Posted by 767Jockey
Roger,
Why "If you're not going racing"? I guess that's what I don't get. Obviously I'm missing something. Is it just the cost and availability of parts? Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. I can go out and get a set of extreme Windsor heads for "X" amount of dollars. At the end of the day I can get heads of equal or less cost mid level heads for the Cleveland, and they'll flow as much and probably more than the Windsor heads. Given that any engine is a glorified air pump, with more air in and more air out equaling more power, I doubt that without spending exorbitant amounts of money you'll find Windsor heads that will flow even what a mid level set of Cleveland heads will flow. I'm not trying to belabor the point here. I just can't see Windsors putting out what an equally prepped Cleveland can. What am I missing?
The 351 Cleveland is not a race motor. It is a great motor but if you are going to do significant racing where you are at high revs for extended periods you will run into trouble. I used to own a race prepared Pantera that had a 351 Cleveland. It was a wonderful motor for track performance but really needed a very large oil pan in order to sustain extended periods on the track. What you will run into is that with sustained periods of high RPMs you will starve the bottom half of the motor and throw a rod through the block. Bottom line, great motor, great power potential, not meant for road racing.
By the way, for a 427 Cobra the obvious choice might be this engine called the Ford 427 Side Oiler.
Cobra Make, Engine: Contemporary, FE, Tremec TKO 600
Posts: 1,975
Not Ranked
Quote:
Originally Posted by richsd
The 351 Cleveland is not a race motor. It is a great motor but if you are going to do significant racing where you are at high revs for extended periods you will run into trouble. I used to own a race prepared Pantera that had a 351 Cleveland. It was a wonderful motor for track performance but really needed a very large oil pan in order to sustain extended periods on the track. What you will run into is that with sustained periods of high RPMs you will starve the bottom half of the motor and throw a rod through the block. Bottom line, great motor, great power potential, not meant for road racing.
By the way, for a 427 Cobra the obvious choice might be this engine called the Ford 427 Side Oiler.
Isn't this the problem that the very simple restrictor kit solves?
The 400 C motor was one of a couple that FoMoCo gave to PDL to repower the transporter with if my memory serves me. Dont happen to know if that car is still around do you?
Funny how storys get around, Last time I spoke with a US based engine builder whos opinion I respect it was the Ford/SVO stuff that had distortion/machining issues! Dart was deemed to be one of the better products.
On the valve springs , yes visual and look real hard- inner springs/dampers in particular along with the whole upper head area for any small pieces that may have broken off. When you set the lash the ends of the stems should have a definite mark where the rocker roller tip runs or perhaps a couple when the valve has rotated slightly. If there is no definite wear pattern it means that your valve spring is not correct for the application and allowing the valve to rotate in the guide which means the keepers/retainers are coming loose at some point in the cycle. This applys only to race type setups,not road going applications where some valve rotation is desirable.
Cleveland
Linear Mode
