427w questions...

[fsstnotch]

Ok, I'm trying to learn about making 427cu in out of a 351. I thought I knew.. but then I found this and this just makes it sound so easy! Is it as easy as using the stock cleveland crank and 427w pistons? This is the info from the for sale ad on the mustang forums

1972 block, cast cleveland crank, stock type rods(shot peened & bushed ends), forged pistons, Tri-cities Aluminum heads (Victor Jr knock offs 2.06 intake valves). Custom ground Erson small base circle roller cam, roller rockers, all ARP fastners

Thanks
Josh

[jperickson2001]

What you quoted says nothing of a stroker crank which is nessesary to extract the extra 76 cubic inches. Buyer beware, especially in engines-John

[Jerry Clayton]

If it sounds too good to be true----

Josh--Cleveland crank can be offset ground to a longer stroke by going to a sbc 2 inch crank pin or the even smaller Honda rod journal size--the 72 cleveland block however can't be bored big enough to then get 427 inches---you will need an aftermarket block such as a Dart---

My nephew comes back this month, tell him to be careful

Jerry

[Three Peaks]

Stroker crank would be needed as well as some clearancing of the block. It is almost that easy as long as you use the right parts. A good rotating assembly to turn a 351W into a 427 should run about $1,000-1,500 (or more depending on quality of parts you use) and you can use the standard 351W block with all the same basic machining requirements of a 351W rebuild- bore and hone cylinders, line bore crank, etc.....

If you're thrifty like me, you can buy a 393 stroker crank and use the stock rods and the proper dished 302 pistons and you won't even need to clearance the block. The 393's put out plenty of power and don't have the clearancing or rod angle problems of the 427's in the 351W block.

[Tony Radford]

If you're seriously considering a 427 Windsor stroker, do the research. There's the right way to do it and plenty of wrong ways.

[fsstnotch]

Ok, thanks guys! I'm not going crazy! haha I'm still planning to do the 408 but this sounded funny to me. Just thought I'd ask the guys here who have more experience in the matter!

Another question... When picking my block, should I focus on the F4TE roller block as my base? I'm thinking that's what I'll do, especially since I have about a year of searching to wait on a decent deal. But is a flat tappet block really that bad? I mean, I've had people tell me to stay totally clear of flat tappet but... they can't be that bad if they lasted as long as they did right?! I know I sound totally ignorant right now! haha I'm really not, I just don't understand why everyone has just up and decided that flat tappet cams are junk! There are obvious benefits to the rollers, and I'd definitely rather do it now or not at all. What's the consensus? To roll or not to roll, and why?

[bobcowan]

The 427W is pretty easy to build with off the shelf parts. Contact a company like Eagle (www.eaglerod.com) and buy a complete matching balanced rotating assembly. Follow their instructions and you're done. No sense re-inventing the wheel when companies like that have done all the work for you.

427's generally have a longer stroke than the 408's. That's why the 427 doesn't rev as high - pistons speed are pretty high.

Pick a block that's '74 or older. You can safely bore them out a little bit larger, and they have a taller deck.

As for the roller cam, unless you're putting in a huge cam, there's very little performance differance between roller and flat tappet. I think the test showed that l;ess than about 260* it's a wash.

Older non-rollerblocks can be converted to roller fairly simply. Use a small base circle retrofit roller cam. You'll need to drill and tap two small holes in the valley, and grind a little bit here and there around the lifter bosses. Not a big deal.

[olddog]

Originally Posted by bobcowan

As for the roller cam, unless you're putting in a huge cam, there's very little performance differance between roller and flat tappet. I think the test showed that l;ess than about 260* it's a wash.

Not sure what test you saw, but the roller has a huge advantage in the rate at which you can open and close the valves. The flat tappet limit is due to the lifter starting to dig into the cam lobe, if the ramp rate is too high. A roller, at the exact same lift and duration as a flat tappet, will have the valve fully open sooner and can hold it open until later. This gives more flow and thus more HP.

Certainly someone could build a roller cam and not take advantage of this fact. A roller cam could be built to the exact profile of a flat tappet cam. Then if you compared that roller cam to the flat tappet there would be no advantage. However it is not possible to duplicate a well designed roller cam with a flat tappet cam.

The OHC 4.6 Ford is pumping out 240 - 260 hp out of 281 cid in family cars with very mild durration by taking advantage of the steep ramp rates possible.

[olddog]

I have read some older books that suggested using the 400M (a Cleveland family engine) crank to make a stroker for the Windsor family engines. At one time that may have been economical to do. Today there are so many good stroker kits available and machine time so costly, I doubt it would pay you to go that route.

[olddog]

I don't think anyone brought up the ZDDP that was removed (reduced) from most oils. This makes high performance flat tappet cams much more likely to wipe a lobe. The roller is more durrable with todays oil. Although there are problems with solid rollers in certain engine families (not sure all engines have this problem). There are many thread on this, so do some searchs and read up. It is a very interesting subject (at least to engine geeks).

[bobcowan]

About two years ago Popular Hot Rodding did a test. They compared three grinds of flat tappet vs roller. Mild, moderate, and wild. Each cam was an off the shelf Comp Cams roller vs. flat grind, with as close to the same specs as you could get. In the first two tests, the power curves looked pretty much the same, a few slight variances, but not much. Once the durations got above about 260*'ish, the roller started to show it's advantage.

The bottom line was that it wasn't worth the extra expense of converting to a roller unless you're running something fairly wild.

I like PHR. They're more technical than the other mags, show more advanced equipment tests, and seem to design their tests better to show a true comparison. They actually use engine dynos and spintrons. Just look at last months issue. There's an excellent study comparing solid vs. hydraulic.

[fsstnotch]

Originally Posted by olddog

I don't think anyone brought up the ZDDP that was removed (reduced) from most oils. This makes high performance flat tappet cams much more likely to wipe a lobe. The roller is more durrable with todays oil. Although there are problems with solid rollers in certain engine families (not sure all engines have this problem). There are many thread on this, so do some searchs and read up. It is a very interesting subject (at least to engine geeks).

The ZDDP problem is really a non problem as long as you are aware of it and use the right oils or additives to combat the lack of ZDDP.

I think what I'm gonna do is just wait till I see a good block pop up for sale. Roller or non and buy it. At this point I'm only stockpiling parts that are not roller/nonroller specific.

9 more months till the build begins!!!

[Lowell W]

As long as you're looking and have some time, you might want to keep an eye out for one of the aftermarket blocks. The Darts are all American cast and machined and have a 4-1/8" bore and I think the Man O' War blocks do too. Easy 427" (4" stroke) or you can get somewhere around 450" if you want to get radical.

Lowell

[Manowar]

http://theengineshop.com/prods_pages/102205.htm
If your budget permits, this is the easiest way to achieve displacement with bulletproof parts.
Our 460 is a 4.155x4.250 and the blocks (iron) have a max bore recommendation of 4.200 for the builders.
For the record, our ManOwar is also "Us cast and machined".

[Dwight]

A lot of time when they say Cleveland style crank they are referring to the crank main bearing size. Cleveland is 2.75" and the Windsor is 3.00". The 3" bearing "see" 20% more friction than the 2.75" bearing. Thus the Cleveland will turn higher RPMs easier. You can buy a FMS spacer kit for the Windsor block for $70, but you have to get it line bored ($150 around here). Now you have the best of both blocks. Most NASCAR motors use the 2.75" mains.

Dwight

[Manowar]

Dwight is correct. I neglected to mention we offer 8.2, 9.2 and 9.5 deck blocks with 2.248 or 2.79 mains. We use the 3.00" main blocks for our 460 complete engines only.

[CHANMADD]

For a person who is not all that engine "savvy", the Manowar short block looks like a pretty good deal,and I am sure has a warranty.

[Manowar]

Chan,
Shorts do not as we can not warrant what a builder or end-user may do or use in the completion of the build. We are however very sensitive to any issues found in our shorts (pardon the expression) and will inspect any problem found and work with the customer to resolve.
The complete engines we offer are 2 year warranted on pump gas models as long as the owner sends back the warranty card within 30 days of the invoice date.
Thanks for the kind words.