Better engine?

[WWS]

What is the better engine between the 351W and the 351C? Also would it be better to use carbs or fuel injection? Thanks.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by WWS

What is the better engine between the 351W and the 351C? Also would it be better to use carbs or fuel injection? Thanks.

This should be interesting - sort of a what's better, big block or small block.....
Look at the engine masters competition, you will almost NEVER see a Windsor headed entry. The majority of Ford small blocks entered are Windsor blocks with Cleveland heads. Essentially, the Cleveland head is a canted valve big block head mounted on a small block. They got a bad rap, and a deserved one, back in the day because the ports were SO darned huge that they were all top end and no bottom end. Those days are LONG gone now, and anyone now spouting that drivel is living with his head in the sand for the last 15 years. The ports have been computer redesigned, and flow way more than the huge old style ports, with amazing port velocities which is what is need for good bottom end power.

There has been a ton of development on the Cleveland style heads done in Australia (Where the Windsor was never introduced to replace the Cleveland), and right now the Aussie aluminum Cleveland heads (Made by both CHI and AFD) produce incredible power, far beyond what the likes of Roush, etc.. are putting out. It is not difficult at all to make a 427+ cu. in. Cleveland headed Windsor (commonly called a Clevor, by the way) with 700 HP that runs on pump gas. Try Mark at MMI racing in Maryland, or any other reputable builder who knows Clevors. It's by far the biggest bang for the buck in a small block Ford.

[RICK LAKE]

WWS Again this is not a simple question. A 351 windsor is better for a street motor. I real boss 302 0r 351 motor will run at higher RPMs better. The cleveland motor will need some oil system improvements for high rpm running. It is cheaper to go with a stroker windsor with the Clevor heads. FI is better for all around driving but the Carb will make about 10-15 HP more in the top end. Carb is cheaper, even a $800,00 Proform. You are looking at 4-7K dollars for a complete FI setup. You might want to look at the TWM setup and talk to Al about this. There are alot more stroker kits and speed parts for the windsor than the Cleveland. I run an FI system and are very happy with it. I am looking at the new XFI FAST system with traction control. now that sharp. Just like the big boys in F1. Rick L.

[olddog]

I have heard it argued that the 3" main journals on the windsor limits the rpm, due to the surface speed on the larger journal shear thining the oil. In theory that has to be true.

If you are going stroker, you do not need all those rpms anyway.

If you stroke the cleveland, you will not need the rpm either, and the oiling system is good to 6000 or so as is.

IMO the cleveland was the superior engine when they left the factory, but over the last 40 years more parts and building techniques were developed for the windsor. The bigger windsor block can be stroked to more cid.

I have to agree the cleavor is the ultimate big small block.

[olddog]

A good multi point EFI with a mass flow sensor that has been set up by someone who knows how to do it right (not me) will beat a carb at everything other than price.

[ENTDOC]

actually a carb usually will deliver more absolute horsepower

[RalphSchmalph]

Any feedback on the polished 342 Roush I'm going to have installed in my BDR next month? I selected it for its power/weight ratio as a good daily driver. Was I wrong? It's not too late to go in another direction. I haven't paid for it yet.

[RICK LAKE]

olddog There have been 5 tests or more about this issue of Carb verses EFI systems. In every case the carb mays more power in the top end from 3-10 HP. The only system that was not tested against the carb was a large throttle body setup like the TWM 58MM. This is the ONLY setup that can match a carb of the 850cfm and up rating. Believe me I have done the homework on this. I run a 1,200 cfm throttle body on my old 452 and 482 motor over the last 8 years. The only thing that a MAF adds to the system is getting a tighter A/F ratio. The biggest MAF I have seen in the last couple of months is a 108mm. Most throttle bodies are in the 90MM range unless you go to the Accell 2,000 cfm with a dominator base. Drivability goes to the EFI system, even with a nasty high compression motor. There may be a advantage of wet verses dry intake manifold. My feeling are that you have a wet sytem(intake) with a carb( say 850cfm ) That is feeding just one cylinder for all it will take. You don't get the same over load of A/F with a EFI system. The injector is either batch fired for sequential fired. I have the latter, but have been told that my system goes to batch over 3,000 rpms because there in no advantage any more because of the speed of the motor. I think with a custom polished intake manifold you could close the split but again the carb will still stay on top. Look at what Nascar does with a 390 cfm carb and 350+ cubes. I think EFI would be in trouble on this one and loose bad. Rick Lake

[RICK LAKE]

RalphSchmalph Ralph I have no problem with a windsor in a cobra even a small one. I have not looked at the prices between the bigger and smaller motors. They both come with the same warranty. You have not said what you are going to do with the car. Street, Racing, 1/4 mile, Show and shine, everything. IMO get the bigger stroker for starters. It will give you about 400rwhp and that's alot of a cobra. You have not said which trans you are going to run or rearend ratio. This also needs to be taken into account. Try for a 500ft torque motor in your car. You can run a lower gearing, cruise on the highway in the 2,200-2,400 rpm range. This motor will have to work a little easier to push the car down the road. Gas milage will be better with the right motor even if it's more cubes. It will not have to work as hard. Hal Copple runs a 390+ windsor and does everything. He might give you a little better inside info on this than me. Sorry I'm with the FE motor guys. I like all the torque I can get. This also keeps the RPMS lower and extends the motors life, even racing. I just got 8 years out of a 452 motor and limiting the RPM's to a 6,200 MAX range. Most times it was 6,000 rpms. That's all you need. Get an overdrive transmission and keep the rearend ration to 3.50 or less. You want to put a rev limiter on the motor of MAX 500 rpm over the max HP reading. You are just wasting motor after this rpm. There is no more power to be had. Rick Lake

[MrMagoo]

I have heard knowledgeable BDR persons state that the ideal motor for the BDR, as far as sheer driving pleasure, is the 302 stroker, like for instance your Roush 342.

A lot of the feel of the car on the road is weight distribution. You dont want the car to nose into a turn feeling heavy, and you want the power to pull out effortlessly. 400+HP will get you there. A lot of people feel that your combo is the best, just as many people associated with Shelby in the 60's (Freidman states this clearly) loved the 289 cobras, and feared the 427's. The 427 was shoehorned in to the AC chassis to keep the somewhat outdated cobras competitive in the racing world during a time of rapid technological advance, and let loose upon the civilian world to meet homologation rules for the various sanctioning bodies, and generate cash to keep the racing operation going, not because anybody thought it would be the ultimate driving machine.

Now, SB vs BB is a religion. You pick your religion, defend it to the death and attempt to convert the heathens. I love the BB's, they look "period" awesome, sound great, and produce unbelievable power and torque. But my belief is that > 330 cid and 400+ hp is enough motor for this car, and you want that front end to be as light as possible assuming you want to drive it on the back roads. Aluminum blocks with aluminum heads change the equation, where you can get the lightness of the 302 in an FE package, for a price. Your Roush will have aluminum heads, and will be as light as you can get without a*pricey exotic aluminum block.

I also think that if I were doing a BB, I would not choose a BDR to do it in. It's a car that was designed with the small block windsor in mind.

In summary, Ralph, you are getting what many believe to be the exactly right motor for the BDR, if you intend to drive it like a sports car, as opposed to racing or cruising the car shows and burger joints (all of which are good things).

[Rickd]

342 Rousch is a great motor. SB strokers are light (relatively), have more than enough power to run on road racing tracks, are very driveable for casual cruising and running around. My KC 331 stroker is a super motor, and perfect for my 289 FIA. The Rousch is "what the doctor ordered" for the BDR. Enjoy it!! Rick

[olddog]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

olddog There have been 5 tests or more about this issue of Carb verses EFI systems. In every case the carb mays more power in the top end from 3-10 HP. The only system that was not tested against the carb was a large throttle body setup like the TWM 58MM. This is the ONLY setup that can match a carb of the 850cfm and up rating.

Rick I do not doubt what you say for a minute. You have way more experiance than me. I have mostly read on subjects that interested me.

By theory, as you mentioned, dry air running through the intake will flow more air, and you can polish it up without the problem of fuel dropping out.

All the factory EFI stuff was designed to give cars and trucks good low to midrange torque, and most of the aftermarket was designed with the same goal. I have no doubt this stuff just will not flow well at high rpm.

I think my mass flow system (designed to look like a carb) is rated for 1200 cfm, and it is on a Vic Jr single plane intake. I wonder how well that intake will flow dry air as it was designed for a carb. It would be interesting to see how this EFI compares with a carb.

I do think that in theory the EFI, if designed for power, should do better than a carb every time, but since most EFI systems were designed to lug passenger cars around the streets with good low rpm torque, it just may not be practical to find an EFI system designed for high rpm power. On the other hand, in theory a bumble bee cannot fly, so maybe I'm full of crap.

[Dinobyte]

Originally Posted by MrMagoo

I also think that if I were doing a BB, I would not choose a BDR to do it in. It's a car that was designed with the small block windsor in mind.

Really?

http://www.vintage-motorsports.com/g.../BDR395?page=4

[RalphSchmalph]

To both Ricks and Mr. Magoo:
Thanks for your thoughtful, well-written and informative posts. I'm convinced that I've done the right thing with the power train. It'll be great for the back roads, long cruises and the occasional wise-ass in the next lane. I intend for it to be a daily driver with a few trips out to the track for some fun. Having heavy-breasted women fawn over me at the odd car show isn't a bad thought either.

[MrMagoo]

Hey Dinobyte,

That sure looks fine!

But, I think the exception that proves the rule. I wonder what the percentage is of BDR's that have big blocks installed? I would imagine if anyone could produce that number, it would be small.

Changing the plugs on the driver side of a BDR with a 351 windsor is not fun. I would not want to try it with a 427 FE.

[Rickd]

Ralph. It is amazing what a STOCK small block, with a lot of low end torque, can do on a road racing course. My first cobra had a 302 HO motor, with Edelbrock rpm performer intake, iron stock E7TE ford heads, a Holley 600 double pumper. The roller cam was the stock HO cam - .44 lift and duration of 209 at .050. Motor had around 275 HP, and the torque cam on quick - at 1500 rpm. On rr track at Gainesville (8 curves and 3 straights) for a high performance driving school - a BDR with a 408 and higher power curve couldn't close the gap all day long. Enjoy it!!!!!!