are sb 427's really 427 c.i.'s

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by jwd

A loser is still a loser.

Ain't that the truth!

[jdean]

all the way to the bank :0

[Rick Parker]

I will stick my toe in this pool very carefully.......I for one do not consider any 351 based engine a Small block, I am sure I am not alone on this. A small block is an 8.2" deck height block, then take all the liberties with the internals. I think that taking an OEM Ford 351 Windsor to extremes with paper thin walls and enormous strokes thus increases the piston speed to the point that you will be reducing the longevity significantly, and that is without even mentioning the 3" main bearings. It can be done yes, and you do have 427 Cubic inches but at what "Price"?
If you want to grow, and make big HP take a lesson from the "Winston" Cup Boys. 358 CU IN. In a big bore short stroke aftermarket block, Yates type Canted Valve heads, stout block and crank, RPM it to 8500 + all day long and and have far superior throttle response to any true Big Block.

[tool time George]

Man I opened up a can of beans,lol.
Thanks for all the responses,although everyones makes good arguments for both sides.
I did do the suggested search on ffcobra.com for T & L engines and am not the least bit impressed. Thanks to all that saved me 9000 bucks.
From what I read they are shakey at best.

[Keithc8]

There is no right or wrong answer here. I build both combinations and they both run great but this because we have done a lot of R&D on both combinations and know what we are doing.
No problem with stroking the 351W base engine because it has a 9.500 tall deck block but you will want to use an aftermarket block like a Dart so that you can build it with a 4.125 bore and a 4.000 stoke. This combination has a good piston design and rod ratio for 8000 rpms if wanted. I know becaue I do it and have run them that way. You are talking about a 6000 to 6500 rpm engine and the 4.000 stroke in the 9.500 block is just fine.
I have also had the FE engine in several of my Cobras rabging from 482 to 527 C.I. that have made in the 600 to 750 HP range and the best one ran 10.02 on street radials at 140 mph. Driven to and from the track and told could not run any more because it was to fast. I also had the fastest cobra at the Ohio Club Cobra gathering with top speed at 108mph in about an 1/8 mile. This was with a 427 small block FORD in a Superformance car with standard street radial tires.
The same Kirkham that ran the 10.02 also was the second fastest behind a fully road race prepped cobra on the road course and the fastest in the autocross on wet pavement of all Cobras there. All the small block guys thought they were going to kill me on the autocross but that did not happen. Now I do believe that this had some to do with driving and set up of the car.
In the end if you deal with the right person that knows what they are doing you can get either that will do what you want and more. Tis is why we build each engine custom for each customer and not a one fits all like most everybody else does. Remember you get what you pay for and you pay for what you get. Deal with a company that has the technology, machinery, experience and is strong enough to stand behind their product. Some of these company's have jumped on the bang wagon of late but they will not be around in a few years. Seen it before and we are seeing it again. Same address and phone number for 15 years and with three children it looks I will be at it about that much longer at least.
You will find out that everyone knows how to build an engine but are they willing to stand behind it. Sill the best bang for the buck going by design. Thanks, Keith Craft

[madmaxx]

KeithC8 said "Deal with a company that has the technology, machinery, experience and is strong enough to stand behind their product"

In my opinion that is the bottom line, purchase from companies that have the resources and PRIDE to stand behind their products and regardless of what happens in the end you will be satisfied.

Prior to purchasing my current SPF with a Roush 427SR/TW I drove a SPF with a 460. With the 460 you could let the clutch out and give it no gas it would not even sputter, with the stroked Roush 351 it may dip a little if you do not give it gas. The 460 in my opinion had about as much get up and go as my KC306 in my backdraft. The Roush 427SR/TW would absolutely dessimate the 460 in any contest except pulling a boat out of the water LOL.

To each their own but if a car is not reliable it is not worth owning. I am sure there are very reliable big blocks out there but the probability of having a reliable small block with hydraulick lifters etc is substantially greater than a big block with flat tappets etc.

I also did not like the way the 460 had little ground clearance under the bell housing where the stroked 351 has ample. Never once have I ever came close to overheating and I live in Houston.

Best of luck

[gene giambona]

I knew I wanted a BB in my Cobra right off the bat. I was going to do the 460 route when I first got the car, but I was fortunate enough to have my engine builder find me a 427 block and iron tunnel port heads with an alum dual quad intake. I'm glad I went with this combo even though I'm sure we could have gotten a lot more power with modern aluminum heads/intake. This FE performs well, is very streetable, and sounds real good.

When I have the hood open, most people don't even know it's a tunnel port motor, but the keen eyes of some will note the difference and usually have a story about someone they knew that had one....one common trait is that they all seem to be smiling when telling me their story.

As far as the engine badge question I typically get asked at the gas station, I usually respond that it's a 427.....hmmmm, I guess that's a little white lie if you consider how the motor was stroked to 482 CI.

Tool Time George, as far as motors are concerned, to each his own but go with whatever makes you happy whether it be a stroked SB or BB...just get it on the road and start enjoying it.

[Dangerous Doug]

mln385: Your argument sounds an awful lot like the "real" vs. "original" CSX4xxx argument that plagues CC from time to time. You know what the guy was asking: Is that a real 427 SO FE? Sure, you have 427 ci, but it isn't an side-oiler (or an FE, for that matter). Neither "original" nor "real", but something different. Not bad; just somethind other than what the person was asking about. You're answering a different question than what the person intented to articulate. Yep, kind of like the CSX4xxx arguments of "real" vs. "original" vs. "replica".

That being said, I'm considering a stroked 351W (a.k.a. a "427") for a later engine for my 289FIA. I like the engine, but I recognize it isn't "original" and strays from Cobra purism.

Okay, now let the "real" vs. "original" firefight begin...

[patrickt]

In all honesty, one should say "It's a small block 427 -- it's not like the ones they originally used." I think you have to go the "extra distance" in answering this question truthfully because anyone that would ask it obviously knows next to nothing about engines since they can't tell the difference between a BB and a SB.

[mln385]

First off I am not arguing and no these people that are asking don't know what an original is ...if they did one look at my BDR and the roush engine with all the Roush name on the air cleaner and valve covers would be a clue.


I do follow up by telling them it is a stroked 427 motor, I don't need nor want to pass my car off as an original as it is not.

Marc

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by mln385

I do follow up by telling them it is a stroked 427 motor...

Marc

I'm sure that helps. "Honey, I saw a car today where the engine had a blood vessel that either clogged or burst, but it still looked good to me."

[madmaxx]

I pulled into a gas station the other day and a guy asked me if my $60K plus Superformance was a kit car. I said "it sure is" he said what it cost and I said the kit was $13,995. He was happy and so was I, what do I give a sheet what people think they don't pay my bills and I only pay the bills of illegals and unemployed.

[Slick61]

Originally Posted by madmaxx

I pulled into a gas station the other day and a guy asked me if my $60K plus Superformance was a kit car. I said "it sure is" he said what it cost and I said the kit was $13,995. He was happy and so was I, what do I give a sheet what people think they don't pay my bills and I only pay the bills of illegals and unemployed.

I like your thinking! That's a great comeback. It's been my experience that Californians are not shy when it comes to discussing money. They'll just come right out and ask how much it cost.

It never fails to crack me up when people pull alongside & ask if it's real... OF COURSE NOT! Would a guy like me have a spare $550k sitting around for an original? ... and even if I did, would I drive it through town on a weekday evening? I don't think so! I guess my midwestern upbringing is showing...

I DO live in a pretty jaded area, though... lots of Ferraris & Lamborghinis so most don't go ga-ga over the car- though many DO tend to roll up their windows. I may have to borrow that reply on occasion...

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by madmaxx

I pulled into a gas station the other day and a guy asked me ... what it cost...

Ahhh, "What does it cost?" You may enjoy this thread: On the "How Much Does Your Car Cost?" Question

[Dangerous Doug]

Originally Posted by patrickt

In all honesty, one should say "It's a small block 427 -- it's not like the ones they originally used." I think you have to go the "extra distance" in answering this question truthfully because anyone that would ask it obviously knows next to nothing about engines since they can't tell the difference between a BB and a SB.

Unless the hood is down when they ask...

DD

[Streetwize]

To compare what you can build either motor at 427", a stroker smallblock wins hands-down.

2 words....Modern Technology.

Take a motorsports block and put on a set of CNC'ed CHI heads and at 427", there's no way an FE can even come close in terms of horsepower. The last few EngineMasters motors have been small blocks with CHI heads that can flow close to 400cfm or enough for 800hp.

You have to compare Apples, cube for cube, aluminum block/head to the same. On paper and with a lot of $$$ you can build an all-aluminum FE that can make awesome power but at 427 cubes it won't make the power or torque of a 427 Smallblock with an 1800G bobweight. Since NASCAR went to 358" in the mid 70's the vast majority of high dollar technology was applied to improving the small block platforms of the big 3. And once the 5.0 hit the streets in the 1980's it became the 55 chevy of this generation and small block technology for very stout street use grew leaps and bounds while the 352-428 FE platform was (sad to say) ignored. The other reason the FE was not furrther developed was the packaging, 428's in mid-late 60's Mustangs were tightly packages and VERY NOSE HEAVY....once the boss 351 hit the street it became to motor of choice and today the Cleveland/Windsor hybrid with race blocks capable of supporting over 470 cubes are now the normally aspirated powerplant of choice.

The FE is great for the purist approach and I admire the ones that build a true replica that honor the originals; but the in line/narrow angle wedge head and horizontal runner angles just can't compete with a canted valve, raidsed port NASCAR Technology modern head in terms of breathing, and breathing means more power and RPM potential. But fact of business...the Cobras that actually won FIA championship and Daytona were all small block powered and the better overall weight distribution and better cooler running packaging make it a slam dunk in terms of Volumetric efficiency and a broader powerband. By the time the 427 S/C came out is was really obsolete because the racing technology and aerodynamics had advanced and the chassis though significantly reinforced over the 289 still suffered from torque flex.

I love FE's, I've been working on them for over 30 years but in a bang for the buck type evaluation, they just don't compare anymore. Just like a Harley, they still have a mystique, but not really the perfomance numbers to still compete head to head because modern technology driven by marketing/packaging/Performance Acceptance caught up.

[lovehamr]

Wize, did you read Keith's post? If you're gonna talk numbers you may want to start there.

Steve

[Trueoo7]

(I also had the fastest cobra at the Ohio Club Cobra gathering with top speed at 108mph in about an 1/8 mile. This was with a 427 small block FORD in a Superformance car with standard street radial tires.)


Keith
Was this a black car and was this the 2006 show because if it was I think I filmed it. I remember you shot past the end of the track.

[Streetwize]

Please read my post again...and with full respect to Keith....what I'm sayingis AT 427" , not at 482, or 514, or 557, (obviously torque and usually power goes up with displacement....even with less efficient heads) ...but for 427 CUBIC INCHES (the subject of this thread) in a Cobra, a small block is a more efficient package and an overall better power producer than a 427"
(4.233 x 3.78") FE...this is mainly due to the HUGE Variety of aftermarket heads out there for them.

[ken swart]

Keith built me a nice 427 sbf with 617 hp and it has a nice sound and way too much power and I drive in my socks and my feet don't burn and there is A LOT of room in that engine bay.Small block just makes sense. By the way, I always describe it as a 427 inch small block.