are sb 427's really 427 c.i.'s

[601HP]

I enjoyed this thread a lot!! Both sides of the discussion!!

If my Ford side-oiler wears out down the road, KC8 will get my business.

David

[JGC]

I think Dangerous Doug made the best point with the 'Real' & 'Original' comments.

I would disagree that a SB wins hands down based on the technology argument. The reasoning is the same as when someone asks if a Z06 would beat a Cobra (here comes another heated debate).

Based on what playing field does the SB beat the FE or 385 Series. I can apply the same technology available for SB's to any BB. The information and parts may not be as readily available, but the technology is.

Remember the bottom end is an air pump. Bore & stroke dictated by the physical dimension of the block. Yes, the heads are a constraint because they have to fit the block and flow. Too much flow can hurt performance though.

Induction is endless. You may not have the capability to cut molds and cast new heads, but intakes are relatively easy to fabricate. Hmm, what if it put a variable path long ram intake on an FE with dual injectors and ran it with a MOTEC. I think that tech would out pace the NASCAR inspired SB.

I guess ultimately everyone should have what they want in their car. We certainly spend enough on them. For the purist, a SB in a 289 is perfect and I prefer an FE in a 427 car.

Sound is very important! The SB v. BB isn't what effects the sound. Firing order, displacement, exhaust tube size & length, and cam make the sound. A Viper engine is certainly a big block but sounds like a Triumph mating with a Volkswagen. (I think this was Lamborghini's engineer's joke on Dodge. The engine could have sounded awesome if they didn't fire two cylinders at once.)

Which is faster SB v. BB? Which ones do you want to compare? I'm sure Keith Craft could build one of each with basically the same torque curve and HP and there would be no way to tell. Everyone wants to compare apples to oranges. They say the FE is too heavy to handle and run with a SB. Well, Keith built my Pond 482 and it weighs 480 pounds with starter, pump, alternator, carb, flywheel & clutch. Oh, and I am using a 68 pound transmission.

I enjoy a debate because it makes us all seek out information and we all learn from it. But if we want to really get to the point about which engine is better, then let's discuss how much better any Ford is than a Chevy.

[PLDRIVE]

I went with a small block for weight, but had it stoked to 461CI. Makes over over 600 hp and 600TQ. Bottom line, more Cubic Inches = more TQ.

[Mark O'Neal]

Originally Posted by patrickt

FEs will snicker, point their plugs, and laugh at you behind your back....

As long as they're behind me...........

[MFE III]

everybody talks about the deep throaty sound of a BB. Why would a 427 SB sound different from a 427 BB? Same size combustion area in each cylinder, same charge . . . I don't understand
Matt

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by MFE III

Why would a 427 SB sound different from a 427 BB? Same size combustion area in each cylinder, same charge . . . I don't understand

Because the harmonic resonance is different in a big block, regardless of whether the combustion chamber size is the same, or even smaller, than that of a small block.

[olddog]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Because the harmonic resonance is different in a big block, regardless of whether the combustion chamber size is the same, or even smaller, than that of a small block.

I thought it was the extra mass of the huge rotating assemble, coupled with the extra air swirling in the cavernous block, along with pumping all the oil, and not to mention all the extra friction, just made it work harder. All that extra grunt gives 'em a different sound.

[Streetwize]

I've built just about every domestic V8 out there over the past 30 yrs, each one has it's own signature Tone...almost like a Guitar...but in general the Cam overlap and the compression (particularly with a roller that "chirps" make it very difficult to tell a Big Block from a small block, but at 427" an FE won't rev as quickly as a 427 small block and will have a deeper slightly more pulsating tone with a similar cam and compression. And the newer aluminum FE heads have smaller fast burn chambers, and they make more power and they sound closer to the modern headsed smallblocks.

[cobrarkc]

[quote=Streetwize;915156]To compare what you can build either motor at 427", a stroker smallblock wins hands-down.

2 words....Modern Technology.

Take a motorsports block and put on a set of CNC'ed CHI heads and at 427", there's no way an FE can even come close in terms of horsepower. The last few EngineMasters motors have been small blocks with CHI heads that can flow close to 400cfm or enough for 800hp.

You have to compare Apples, cube for cube, aluminum block/head to the same. On paper and with a lot of $$$ you can build an all-aluminum FE that can make awesome power but at 427 cubes it won't make the power or torque of a 427 Smallblock with an 1800G bobweight. Since NASCAR went to 358" in the mid 70's the vast majority of high dollar technology was applied to improving the small block platforms of the big 3. And once the 5.0 hit the streets in the 1980's it became the 55 chevy of this generation and small block technology for very stout street use grew leaps and bounds while the 352-428 FE platform was (sad to say) ignored. The other reason the FE was not furrther developed was the packaging, 428's in mid-late 60's Mustangs were tightly packages and VERY NOSE HEAVY....once the boss 351 hit the street it became to motor of choice and today the Cleveland/Windsor hybrid with race blocks capable of supporting over 470 cubes are now the normally aspirated powerplant of choice.

The FE is great for the purist approach and I admire the ones that build a true replica that honor the originals; but the in line/narrow angle wedge head and horizontal runner angles just can't compete with a canted valve, raidsed port NASCAR Technology modern head in terms of breathing, and breathing means more power and RPM potential. "


You know most people would have to agree with you about modern technology and the canted valve heads but I'll bet 90% of the people that brag about their small blocks are running in line/ narrow angle windsor heads with that same old technology of the FE head.

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by olddog

I thought it was the extra mass of the huge rotating assemble, coupled with the extra air swirling in the cavernous block, along with pumping all the oil, and not to mention all the extra friction, just made it work harder. All that extra grunt gives 'em a different sound.

I got excited reading this post

E

[Streetwize]

Rich,

I think you may be right regarding the head/valve layout but even considering that these days 427" is really the realm of the big inch small block, much lighter rotating mass (my bobweight is like 1830G), guys are building small blocks in the 470 and even 480 cube range these days. 1 7/8" and 2" header sizes that weren't even dreamed of 15 yrs ago for smallblocks, now they're common place. And I do agree most of the Windsor stuff is still a traditional wedge, however the port angles and lighter valvetrain mass (especially in that 280-320CFM headflow range) is still an advantage at higher RPM (above the torque peak)over say the Edelbrock FE head.

Another thing about packaging is that for a given HP output there is a lot more room in the Cobra engine compartment for a smallblock to dissipate heat and when you are hot lapping a car around the track or even around town heat soaking of the intake manifold/heads and carb will absorb a fair amount of net power (as the fuel charge loses density onthe way to the hole)to the wheels in the real world as a opposed to the controlled conditions of the engine dyno.

I run an iron block aluminum head 351 based 427 with a scattershield, the weight balance of the car is nearly perfect and the power to weight and the HP/torque curve is virtually identical to a real deal FE as delivered in 1965-66....that's really what matters to me, does it feel like a 7 litre motor from behind the wheel.....also to me a smallblock offsets some of the weight penalty of the heavier fiberglass body, to build an iron block glass bodied car you're going to wind up a bit heavier than the real thing....yes some of us can and will afford the high dollar dove aluminum block and more power to them.....I don't have the Dust to go that route butit's not to say I wouldn't if I could. As I said, I love the old FE, it's quirky intake/head configuration, all that stuff....but at the 500-600hp level, I like the smallblocks.

BTW....PatrikT...That is an Awesome looking cobra you have !!!!

[cobrarkc]

Originally Posted by Streetwize

Rich,

I think you may be right regarding the head/valve layout but even considering that these days 427" is really the realm of the big inch small block, much lighter rotating mass (my bobweight is like 1830G), guys are building small blocks in the 470 and even 480 cube range these days. 1 7/8" and 2" header sizes that weren't even dreamed of 15 yrs ago for smallblocks, now they're common place. And I do agree most of the Windsor stuff is still a traditional wedge, however the port angles and lighter valvetrain mass (especially in that 280-320CFM headflow range) is still an advantage at higher RPM (above the torque peak)over say the Edelbrock FE head.

Wize
I quess you don't know that Keith Craft stage II heads flow 320+ cfm and stock Tunnelport heads flow 350cfm and there are couple people manufacturing SOHC heads that flow 400cfm and they are making kits for complete engines now. On the FE forum Ohio George was just telling everyone how he ran his SOHC motors to 8k+ back in the 60's. As you stated it costs big money but the old saying still holds true. "There is no substitute for cubic inches".
Small blocks are fun as you can see I have one, but there is nothing like that kick in the pants you get from a BIG BLOCK!

[Streetwize]

With respect....I think I know a pretty good amount about most of the heads that are out there, and I know a better than average amount about BIG BIG BLOCKS (ex: I run Chapman CNC'ed 380+ heads on a 700+hp 517" street car) ....but with big blocks proportionally big cross section ports will want either (big cubes to make torque) or Lots of RPM to make the ports work. The really trick "go fast" stuff for big blocks all have farily large (to really large) port cross-sections as they are designed primarily to work with todays modern BIG (typically 480+ cube) Big blocks. The really big stuff flows 465+ cfm and state of the art pro stock 500" stuff is well over 500.

If you build a 427" FE and a 427" 9.2 to 9.5" deck height smallblock with similar head flows (take your pick as long as you go Apples to Apples) compression, cams, induction and exhaust, I'd put my $$$ on the small block making more power, and fromthe driver's seat the smallblock (by virtue of a more efficient port (smaller valve, longer stroke, better port angle and smaller port cross section) it would make more torque out of the basement and then up top by virtue of a MUCH LIGHTER bobweight and valvetrain mass will rev faster and higher and make more power up top. Maybe not much more, but definately measureably more. So I think you can attain both more peak power and better average torque through out the powerband, so at 427" I think the "Nothing kicks like a big block" doesn't really hold up any more.

Remember....To compare fairly you have to build both to the same size and parameters. A smallblock reaches a practical limit at around 450-460 cubes, (4.155 x 4.17-ish), but even potentially bigger with a 400M deck block. compare that to maybe 410 only 10 yrs ago. Beyond that you are pretty much in the Big block realm.

The topic is 427 cubes (and ONLY 427 cubes).....7000 cc's.......for Fords (my .02 cents) the best power packages at that displacement or below are small blocks in terms of average torque and Hp per cube. Again....It's primarily due to the tens of millions of dollars invested over the years in NASCAR small block (358") technology that has trickled down to the hot hodding world.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Streetwize

BTW....PatrickT...That is an Awesome looking cobra you have !!!!

Thanks, you just made my day. She's tucked away until spring in a CarBag with a few bags of desiccant, StaBil in the tank, and an extra 10lbs of air in the tires. My December to April maintenance involves nothing more than pushing the car forward and back in the bag once a month.

[Barry_R]

I'll put one of my "good" FE engine up against a comparable displacement small block any day. Actually I have - at the Engine Masters. And my FE stuff comes out looking pretty darn competitive against any design out there. Anything that can be done to a small block for enhanced performance or efficiency can be equally applied to an FE. The FE has a BETTER valve angle than a small block by a bunch. The BT high riser heads address the low floor position nicely. I can get at least equal compression with a flat piston since my chambers are very small by big block measurements - I've been as small as 66cc.

At a rules mandated 434 inches in 2006 we were right in the upper/middle of the pack - the canted valve CHI combo was obviously in the sweet spot - something like 7 of the top ten. But if I recall correctly, there were NONE of the traditional wedge headed small block Ford engines ahead of me. So much for superiority.

In both 2007 and 2008 we were alowed to build to any OE displacement (+ a few cubes for boring), and scores were factored by cubic inches. Again we fared pretty well with the old FE both years. Take out the incredibly talented, well financed & researched Kaase and Bischoff entries and we are doing just fine for bunch of Detroit street rats. We have always been in the top few on horsepower - old racers tend to go big!

If you're gonna use the EMC as a reference - and it ain't a bad one with impartial scoring, many OE compatable components, and pump gas as requirements - then you either build a Cleveland headed small block - or something else. The popular wedge headed small block ain't in the hunt. That ought to tick a few guys off (I actually like small blocks, but since he's bashing my specialty I'll take a chunk out).

The difference between a 427 Windsor and a 427 FE is that the small block car keeps his hood shut at shows - badge envy!

Obviously I have a bias.

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

The difference between a 427 Windsor and a 427 FE is that the small block car keeps his hood shut at shows - badge envy!

I am to busy driving my car to worry about car shows.

[patrickt]

... an electrical engineer friend of mine said to me the other day "You know Pat, a small block is like a civil engineer." Of course, I had no idea what he meant and asked him to explain. His explanation was that "real engineers," be they electrical, chemical, mechanical, or nuclear, view civil engineers as being a joke -- wannabe engineers, if you will. After he explained it to me, it made perfect sense in comparing smalll blocks to FEs. What an apt expression....

[Got the Bug]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Thanks, you just made my day. She's tucked away until spring in a CarBag with a few bags of desiccant, StaBil in the tank, and an extra 10lbs of air in the tires. My December to April maintenance involves nothing more than pushing the car forward and back in the bag once a month.

Take that poor car out of its bag.

Your winter maintenance schedule should include a couple of drives.

Who drives their Cobra in the cold weather?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Got the Bug

Your winter maintenance schedule should include a couple of drives.

Who drives their Cobra in the cold weather?

Well, I will say that driving a Cobra on snow has a certain allure to it. The problem is that we don't have much snow -- we have salt. Salt on the roads, salt on the cars, salt everywhere. Salt, salt, salt. The colors of all the cars look the same because they're covered in a layer of salt -- it looks kind of like a color TV's picture tube before it finally gives out for good. There's so much salt you have to wash the dog's paws if she goes for a walk in the street. It's terrible. And it won't go away until we get a couple of really hard, soaking rains in late March or April. You know, like the rains that fixed FatBoy's leather seats....

[McD00]

I'm back guys, they said I had a "brakedown". What do those damn doctors know anyway. It all started when I had a dream that I got another F.inally E.xtinct big block engine. This time I put fuel injection on it and could not git it to run right. Those big rods went round and round until there was a F.atal E.xtraction so I dropped the b!tch in the lake for a bouy. What a turd! Thanks for dragging me in this pile of crap.

McVette

dont get me started

Originally Posted by Barry_R

I'll put one of my "good" FE engine up against a comparable displacement small block any day. Actually I have - at the Engine Masters. And my FE stuff comes out looking pretty darn competitive against any design out there. Anything that can be done to a small block for enhanced performance or efficiency can be equally applied to an FE. The FE has a BETTER valve angle than a small block by a bunch. The BT high riser heads address the low floor position nicely. I can get at least equal compression with a flat piston since my chambers are very small by big block measurements - I've been as small as 66cc.

At a rules mandated 434 inches in 2006 we were right in the upper/middle of the pack - the canted valve CHI combo was obviously in the sweet spot - something like 7 of the top ten. But if I recall correctly, there were NONE of the traditional wedge headed small block Ford engines ahead of me. So much for superiority.

In both 2007 and 2008 we were alowed to build to any OE displacement (+ a few cubes for boring), and scores were factored by cubic inches. Again we fared pretty well with the old FE both years. Take out the incredibly talented, well financed & researched Kaase and Bischoff entries and we are doing just fine for bunch of Detroit street rats. We have always been in the top few on horsepower - old racers tend to go big!

If you're gonna use the EMC as a reference - and it ain't a bad one with impartial scoring, many OE compatable components, and pump gas as requirements - then you either build a Cleveland headed small block - or something else. The popular wedge headed small block ain't in the hunt. That ought to tick a few guys off (I actually like small blocks, but since he's bashing my specialty I'll take a chunk out).

The difference between a 427 Windsor and a 427 FE is that the small block car keeps his hood shut at shows - badge envy!

Obviously I have a bias.