How to build the best 8000 rpm Ford small block

[Rickd]

The AFR's make power, that is proven. As far as how sturdy the stock assemblies are for serious racing, I could not answer that, but I do know that people who use them for serious racing generally change the springs and valves. They try to buy the castings, and then add high end components, as the castings are very good and the CNC air flow on the AFR's is very good. My 331 stroker with AFR 165's dyno'd 446 hp at 6000 rpm on the stand, and after installation, gave 326 rwhp on a chassis dyno tuner. Power is there, but this motor has the stock valves etc. If it were going in a race car I would have bought bare castings, added real nice valves, studs, springs, and a girdle. Rickd

[RICK LAKE]

Alan P. Alan building a 302-331 windsor motor to make 425-450 hp is not a problem. 8,000 rpm is. What gearing and what trans are you going to run? 4 speed, 5 speed? What size tires? How crazy are you looking? Westlake Gurney headed motor? How do you define pump gas?? 91-93 octane? or 100 unleaded fuel? A set of Boss 302 heads with a single plane 800 cfm with get you to 8,000 rpms. For an FI system and the RPM you are looking at, Moldec. It's faster than Fast, I am not a big fan of Accel or some of the others. A 347 motor will give you more power and need less rpms to do the same. I think you already know that different tracks need different gearing. As far as parts for your motor, Callies crank, Crower, LAE crank,or Velasco with all the lightening work and coatings done to the crank. Carillo rods. Any good piston with both side and top coatings. Solid roller camshaft with oversized rollers. The oiling system will need some SPECIAL work. Possibly a spray bar for each head on the rockers, like Nascar. With out the intake you are looking at a 15-17K motor. Why not look into a busch motor from nascar. 355cid, 650+HP all the best parts, just change the pistons to less compression. High HP motor have a short life, large torque motors can chase high HP motors all day and pass them coming out of turns, you are only going to get caught on a long straight. Maybe a change in your driving style needs to be re thought? I am not a pro racer or builder but have found that a great handling car and smooth driver will beat a higher hp car 8 out of 10 times on a normal size track without 4000ft long stretches. IMO. Rick Lake

[Alan P.]

Thanks Rick for the input..... Again Porsche,BMW and Ferrari have had great success with high revving motors but with out the torque. But maybe they have it wrong. I don't mean to be sarcastic but the question should have been to build a fair price long block ($5000-$6500) + intake ,injection unit, distributor etc. that any driver from Lewis Hamilton to Jerry Lewis could take to the track on a regular bases have fun and not have to worry about gear ratios, tire aspect ratios, track temps,etc. If you can't drive a lick then the best motor in the world won't make a difference. One of the biggest worries a track driver (on a budget and those with unlimited funds) has from the 19,500 RPM F1 cars to the 9000 RPM+ Nascar drivers is piston to valve contact. It has been rumored to have ruined ones day. I would like to build a low cost potentially sealed create motor for track use and extreme street, that offers some flexibility in the RPM dept with good hp and reliability.Pump gas (93 octane) is required for most sanctioned events depending on class.

[Dwight]

check out Keith Crafts new heads

http://keithcraft.com/vp500/shopdisp...e+Series+Heads

I would call Keith and tell him what you want. I believe he can built you the motor you want, cheaper and it will make more hp and will hold together.

call him

Dwight

This is a Nascar motor that sold on ebay a couple of years ago. I think it sold for $5125. This is a 9000 rpm motor. Note the bore and stroke.

THIS IS A COMPLETE FORD SMALL BLOCK 358 NASCAR MOTOR. THIS COMPLETE

ENGINE WAS TAKEN APART FOR INSPECTION AND IS A COMPLETE MATCHING ENGINE

WITH NO DAMAGE AND JUST NEEDS A FRESHEN UP AND ASSEMBLY. IT WAS A 9/1

COMPRESSION MOTOR AND I HAVE SOME HIGH COMPRESSION PISTONS IF THE BUYER

WANTED TO RAISE THE COMPRESSION. THE HEADS ARE FULLY PORTED YATES C-3

CASTINGS PORTED BY DIAMOND RACE HEADS WITH 2.100 AND 1.600 DELWEST STEEL

TIPPED TITANIUM VALVES, DEL WEST TITANIUM RETAINERS AND COMP CAMS ROLLER

SPRINGS. THE COMPLETE JESEL ROCKER SYSTEM IS 1.6 INTAKES AND 1.55 EXHAUST.

THE BLOCK IS AN OLD STYLE A-351 SIAMESE BLOCK WITH 2.75 MAINS AND A BORE OF

4.125 AND ROLLER CAM BEARINGS. THE MATCHING ROLLER CAM AND COMP CAMS

SOLID ROLLER LIFTERS AND CV PRODUCTS HOLLOW PUSHRODS. THE ULTRA LITE

SONNY BRYANT BILLET 3.320 CRANK HAS 2.75 MAINS AND 2.00 X .940 ROD JOURNALS

AND IS GUN-DRILLED WITH PROFILED COUNTERWEIGHTS. THE MATCHING 6.300

CARRILLO RODS ARE THE LIGHTEST VERSIONS AVAILABLE AND HAVE CARR BOLTS.

THE J & E 9/1 PISTONS ARE LIKE NEW AND HAVE THE 2.500 LITE PINS. THE OILING

SYSTEM IS A HAMBURGER OVAL TRACK/ ROAD RACE NASCAR PAN AND THE 4-STAGE

PUMP HAS ALL THE LINES AND MATCHING BRACKETS. THE MSD 8384 BILLET

DISTRIBUTOR HAS DUAL PICK-UPS. THE ATI FLUID DAMPER IS PART NUMBER 4069938

AND IS SFI APPROVED. THE FULLY PORTED EDELBROCK INTAKE IS A 2991. THE

MOTORSPORT ALUMINUM VALVE COVERS HAVE A BREATHER ON 1 SIDE. THE 1-WIRE

ALTERNATOR AND CARTER FUEL PUMP ARE INCLUDED. ALL BRACKETS AND BOLTS

ARE THERE ALSO. THE FRONT COVER IS A $500 ERNIE ELLIOT MAGNESIUM PART WITH

SOLID DRY SUMP PUMP MOUNT. THE HEAD BOLTS AND VALVE TRAIN BOLTS ARE ALL
FROM ARP. THE ONLY REPAIRS I CAN SEE THAT WERE EVER MADE WAS SOME

WELDING IN THE PUSHROD HOLES AS WAS VERY COMMON ON THOSE EARLY HEADS

WHEN THEY WERE PORTED. THE BLOCK HAS 1 HELICOIL ON THE MAIN BOLT AND

SHOWS THE NORMAL SPIDER WEB CRACKS AROUND THE HEAD BOLT HOLES AS ALL

THESE BLOCKS DO AFTER 100S OF TORQINGS FROM NASCAR REBUILDS AND THEY

DONT AFFECT ANYTHING. THIS MOTOR WAS RUN MANY RACES JUST THIS WAY AND

WILL CONTINUE FOR YEARS TO COME. NO REPAIRS OR MACHINE WORK OF ANY KIND

HAS BEEN DONE SINCE IT WAS TAKEN APART SO IT SHOULD GO RIGHT BACK

TOGETHER VERY EASILY WITH ALL MATCHING AND BALANCED PARTS. MY RESERVE

IS A VERY LOW $4500 SO SOMEBODY IS GONNA GET A DEAL ON A GREAT RACE MOTOR

BUT IF IT DOESNT SELL I WILL BREAK IT UP AND RELIST THE PARTS. I WILL GIVE A NO

QUESTIONS ASKED 7 DAY GUARANTEE ON THIS MOTOR WITH THE BUYER PAYING

ONLY SHIPPING BOTH WAYS. I WILL CRATE FOR FREE AND GET THE BUYER MY 52%

TRUCK FREIGHT DISCOUNT. I WILL BE HARD TO CATCH NEXT WEEK BUT YOU ARE

WELCOME TO TRY WITH ANY ???? 207 892 8141

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[vector1]

what's in your wallet?

you can spin a 302 block to 8000 easy enough, it's the peripherals that are gonna cost the money.

aftermarket 4 bolt block, 4.125+ bore to make the big valves breath, short piston to keep the wt. down which means long rod. i'm using 1.3 ch pistons and the pin is just below the oil ring. internal balance doable?

good set of heads with pedestal mount rockers, ls1 springs & valves & retainers. prob have somebody build the heads to handle the rpm. afr has a new head at sema for sbf but haven't heard anything.

will need custom cam. blykins can get what you need through mike jones or go direct, he'll know what to do if you need the manifold vacuum or not. solid roller or hyd?

prob accel or fast for efi, something somebody can work with and tune.

i would get the piston/rod/crank relationship together to see what you can do if you're gonna spin it that high all day.

talked to a guy who raced 347's to 8000rpm and he was breaking the snouts off till he changed to belt drive cam, something to think about.

just a few thoughts. good luck.

[Caprimaniac]

Hi, well- I've been dreaming of a 10.000 rpm 302 for some years, and here are my thoughts on this matter:

- Sturdy 4- bolt block
- Standard throw crank, lightened, knife- edged, polished... (stroking WILL lower the RPM potential)
- Light weight long rods (I- beam of a special kind.?.)
- Short- skirt pistons of some kind. Bore= 4.125? or std (keeps weight down).
- Belt- drive cam gear.
- Heads: high- ported head. Canted valves?
- Solid roller cam- no doubt.
- Roller bearings for the cam.
- Light weight lifters.
- titanium valves, keepers and retainers.
- shaft mounted rocker arms
- dry sump system w/ scraper etc
- tuned headers, "snake-pit" like the GT40

For a 8000 rpm 331/347 (which I curently use, well- ok, let's say 7500)- assuming you use a well balanced stroker kit (like "Eagle competition" or equivalent consisting of "goodenuff" parts) I think you can make the engine reliable by using:
- A "priority" oiling system, for instance by using the rollers for the cam. Has to be well- designed anyway.
- A professional balancing of the rotating assembly- if the engine will be running at 7000 rpm+ continously, the workshop should take that in consideration.
- A light weight valvetrain including a solid roller cam......
(-A professional assembly of the engine, of course.)

Any comments?
RS

[WildBill3]

I just dont see you coming in with that much durability for that price we came in 10 over that, still no worries after three seasons but were doing it with a 408 thats a little harder to keep together than the smaller bore and stroke engines,I just love our little 289 and how it revs the 283 and 327 chevy's were all very good at reving quicker I think.And didnt seem so hard on parts.Piston speed on the bigger engines can be a real killer KC can do some good stuff Southern Automotive has some nice engines also,I would plug our builder but the owner died and has changed hands ,such is life.Good hunting .WB3 Th engine Dwight has would be a super start for somebody wanting to do a Killer engine wish I had the money right now,Trade ya for a 66 mustang project...

[Caprimaniac]

As David points out : ... not that hard to do and not that expensive... I agree on that.

But, I'm still thinking how to upgrade my 8000(+) 347 this winter.

For reliability I was thinking going lighter on valve gear. So what's the deal? Titanium (or aluminium, if available and adviceable?) retainers & keepers is not too expensive and worth the money. Valves: Should I choose Titanium (1000$) or should I go for undercut race- valves like Manley Race Flo?

And here comes what I need to ask::::: while looking for the correct titianium valve, I cannot seem to grasp it... If a 11/32" valve is listed for a head, you should expect a 0,344" valve to be listed, but no! Only 0,3415".

Is this the explanation: 11/32" is the bore of the valve guide and valve stems are 0,3415" ? (Makes clearance 0,00225".)

[Excaliber]

Ford sure had trouble keeping those BOSS 302's together back in the day. To get the horse power with those big heads they had to rev really high, which was killing the engines. I guess technology has advanced enough these days to twist and engine to 8,000 on the track AND live for a decent amount of time? Or, has it...

AFR heads are hard to beat for "all around" performance. Their design is such that they typically flow more at lower and mid range rpm than most other heads. Making them excellent for the street and good torque. They don't suffer at high rpm either, BUT, when it comes to MAX flow at high rpm, there are better heads to be had.

For my use requirements, mostly street, some track, AFR would be an excellent choice.

[CobraEd]

Don't have any idea how they do it but I am told that the 500 CI Top Fuel Dragster engines that are putting out 8,000 - 9,000 hp have a redline of 9,600 RPM. If true, that is AMAZING !!!!


.

[Excaliber]

Well 9,600 rpm for less than 5 seconds falls just a bit short of a road racing goal.

Some impressive numbers on those dragsters though, dam impressive.

[Caprimaniac]

No input on those Ti valves?

Reasoning is: less valvtrain weight- more easy on parts.

Yup, the dragsters run high RPM. That is where the power is!

[cobrarkc]

Originally Posted by Doug I

.
If you want to go a little further ....... give these guys a call
http://www.coatesengine.com/index.html

With their heads on a strong bottom end you could spin it north of 10k. The fuel system would need careful design to keep up - but again any good builder will be able to do that. It would sound .... interesting.

As far as I know these people haven't sold any heads to the public. I called them last year and they told me that that section of their business was on hold. They have changed their website since then. Their stock is still under a dollar and has been their for years, if they really had a product that does what they say it will they could revolutionize the business.

[PANAVIA]

Don't forget the NEW ford boss 302 block, and H beam rods, this is very attainable , you also may want to go look at the z304 heads from ford racing,

[Rick Parker]

I believe the TI valves would require a change of valve seat material and also result in more wear on the valve faces.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Alan P.

How to build the best 8000 rpm Ford small block ?

Get a professional engine builder to do it.


get the article in Mustang and Fords , 7/03

[blykins]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Get a professional engine builder to do it.

I would agree....

Making an engine survive at 8000-9000 is a whole different than your 5500 street cruiser.

[Don Barnes]

Where is this project, it been two years and I was wondering how this road racing beast was coming?? db

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by blykins

I would agree....

Making an engine survive at 8000-9000 is a whole different than your 5500 street cruiser.

I had a supercharged BB (509 ci) that I was spinning up to 7200 and lunched the motor twice. We switched to a Jesel valvetrain after the first motor we lost, but still lost the second motor. We backed down the RPM's to 6000 on the third motor and it survived. This was sustained RPM's in a boat with a BB, but those extra 1200 rpm's made the difference. My builder at the time said high rpm motors just don't last, and based on my experience I would agree.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by PANAVIA

Don't forget the NEW ford boss 302 block, and H beam rods, this is very attainable , you also may want to go look at the z304 heads from ford racing,

If you wanna go this route,call me (PM), I'll sell you a BOSS 302 block real right, has one hour of dyno run time on it and I'll throw in the ARP head studs.............

David