Have you ever built a 408 Stroker?

[Clois Harlan]

Neither had I until this year and I thought I might mention a few things that I ran into that might help the next builder. Here is what I have to work with:

1989 351 W production block with a 9.5" deck machined and modified by Stanley Morton here in Broken Arrow. Every piece of the rotating assembly from the harmonic balancer to the flywheel was internally balanced to zero.

Eagle Rotating Assembly with Billit Steel Crank, H-Beam Rods, SRP 10:1 forged Pistons, J& E wrist pins w/ spiral locks, and Clevitte 77 bearings, Perfect Circle file fit rings, Melling M-83HV oil pump, ARP oil pump shaft, Comp Cams Dual true roller timing chain, Moroso oil pan and pick up and a Comp Cams Girdle .

Comp Cams 571 lift, 242/258 Dur, 108° (I think) w Ford Racing Roller Lifters, Comp Retrofit spider and dog bones, smith push rods. Scorpion roller rockers (1.72). Stanley had to machine the areas around the lifters to accept the roller rocker dog bones as well as clearance the bottom of the cylinders for the additional stroke of the rods. Plus, a few other little things he likes to do to a race prepared STREET/STRIP engine.

Keith Craft worked his magic on a set of Pro Comp Alum Heads he built with Edelbrock Guides, SS Valves, Comp Cams Dual Springs, a multi angle valve job, and SS valve seats and a few other things.

Everything will be held together with ARP bolts and studs and Fel-Pro Gaskets.

That is the Basic parts list but here is where the fun starts. All the true mastery came from the work of Keith Craft and Stanley Morton so I am basically just assembling the pieces. So after a thurough cleaning of all surfaces I began and here are a few notes to consider.

1. All Fords thrust bearing is on the number 3 bearing (Chevrolet uses the last bearing #5 for their thrust bearing).

2. The basic Fel-Pro Racing engine gasket kit does not include the CORRECT rear one piece seal for the 351. The Eagle Crank uses a bigger diameter one piece gasket (Ford PN # M 6701)

3. The oil HV pump must be clearanced (scary to be grinding away at such an important part of the engines livelyhood). Remeber .050" clearance

4. If you are using a girdle you MUST mill out the area of the girdle to recess the bolt where the right side front main bolt interfers with the oil pump about .100". Do this before you even begin assembly (Saves time).

5. Installing the wrist pins in the rods with spiral lock retainers will make your fingers sore. Install your oil rings first with the your upper and lower ring ends at 180° from each other and 90° from the end of the end of the wavey oil ring. The second ring goes on next and should be positioned 90° from either oil ring and the top rings goes on next at 180° from the second ring. Ring Gaps were filed to fit and checked before assembly for each cylinder and set at .026°. Use plenty of engine assembly lube (I used Redline assembly lube but Perma Gasket makes a Red Ultra Slick assembly lube that is very good as well). All moving parts get a liberal amount of assembly lube and I like to coat the cylinder walls with a little as well for that initial start up.

6. The oil pump pick up may interfere with your rods and in my case they did so you will need to grind away about 3/8" of material where the rod bolts hit the oil pump pick up brace. Check rotation clearances everywhere with a minimum clearance of .050". Before you put on your oil pan rotate the engine again and check clearances. Make sure nothing fixed touches anything that moves. Then double check you pickup depth for proper clearances and oil pan position.

7. If you thought you would use your original cam bolt that holds your timing gear on, think again; because the cam I chose from Comp Cams requires a much larger diameter bolt 7/16" X 20 X 1 1/2 ".

8. And last but certainly not least be sure and use the correct gear on your distributor. In my case I went with a hydraulic roller cam w/ roller lifters which requires the use of a STEEL distributor gear (brass if you don't mind changing it out ocassionally) on a MSD distributor. Assembly lube on the cam and distributor gear as well.

9. One other thing take your time check your clearances and plan your next move before you do it.

This is certainly not all there is but it will get thru some of the areas you may not have delt with before in a normal engine build. Good luck.

Pictures and a dyno session in a few weeks.

Clois Harlan

[SPF1061]

Hi Clois!
Sorry to be off topic, but I have tried to email you directly several times over the past couple of months with no luck. Would you drop me an email when you have a minute? Thanks.

steve.payne@comcast.net

[Clois Harlan]

Here you go Steve:

tulsacobra@valornet.com home
clharlan@dcpmidstream.com work

By the way we have turned in your order to Gateway!

Clois

[blykins]

Never done a 4" stroke, but I've done two 4.100" strokes...one on a production block and one on a new Dart block. The production block only needed the cylinder skirts notched a tiny bit (I'm very surprised that you had to grind the cylinders on a 408). The Dart block didn't require anything.

I'm curious to find out what you used for an oil pump pickup as I've never had any problems with clearance whatsoever, except for having to tweak one to get the pickup/pan clearance set correctly.

If you're used to Chebby's, you're in for a treat when you build a Ford engine....no pencil sized main fasteners, no cam buttons for roller cams, and no extreme grinding. I just finished a 383 for a buddy and had to grind on everything, including the ends of the rods where they touched the cam.

One thing for the next time you do a 408, use the forged I-beam rods. You probably won't have to touch anything at all. I use I-beam rods extensively now. They are plenty strong enough, they are lighter than the H-beams, and they're a lot cheaper than the H-beams. You can get a set of Scat 4340 I-beam rods with ARP 7/16" fasteners in a SBC length (for SBF strokers) for about $250-275.

Instead of a heavy assembly lube on the cylinders, I usually just *lightly* spray my ring compressor (tapered) with WD-40 and *lightly* wipe down the cylinder with WD as well. This will help the rings get a good bite right off the bat.

Be sure and let us know what she makes with those cylinder heads.

[Three Peaks]

What kind of assembly lube are you using for your piston install? I usually just dunk the piston with rings installed in a coffee can of oil and push them into the block while they are still dripping with oil. Never had a problem yet. I would think any other type of assembly lube might interfere with ring seating?

Bob

[blykins]

Actually, a lot of builders believe that an excessive amount of engine oil like that will also interfere with rings seating. A lot of other builders that I've talked to either use a *very* light coat of oil on the rings or a spray of WD-40. The WD will flash off fairly quickly.

[Mark O'Neal]

Originally Posted by Three Peaks

What kind of assembly lube are you using for your piston install? I usually just dunk the piston with rings installed in a coffee can of oil and push them into the block while they are still dripping with oil. Never had a problem yet. I would think any other type of assembly lube might interfere with ring seating?

Bob

I've built thousands of them.

We're still using Childs & Albert Assembly Oil. It is an extra refined 10 weight oil.

If you're starting it up quickly you can use WD-40 or transmission fluid. The lighter weight oil enhances ring break-in.......which is (basically) grind to fit.

[Clois Harlan]

Bob,

I have done the same thing with a good 30 wt oil and never had a problem. This time I used the Redline assembly lube on everything from the rod pins, all bearings, cam, timing chain, lifters, and distributor.

Brent,

I bought a new Moroso T-style oil pan from one of the members here and ordered the correct pick up from Moroso. The pick up tube has a triangular brace that extends across the radius of the tube. That is what I had to notch. I barely touched the oil pump (second oil pump-the first one I ground to deep and really clearanced it) with a grinder after having the girdle milled out about .100.

Keith and Stanley both estimate about 500 hp on pump gas with a 750 HP. I am still waiting on my water pump and some valve covers so I probably won't get it dyno'd until next week.

I am kinda a "tester" on the Pro Comp stuff just to see how it works out (heads, distributor, and box). The price was right! Everything else is Edelbrock, Comp, Crane, or some other main line speed part. I was supposed to test the intake but they sent the wrong one so I went with the Edelbrock Performer RPM.

Clois

[Clois Harlan]

Here is another reason for the assembly lube in the cylinders. After the dyno next week this engine will probably sit for awhile before it gets dropped into the coupe. And then who knows how long it will sit before it actually gets driven regularly. Things aren't moving as quickly as I had hoped.

Clois

[Jerry Clayton]

The only 2 engines that I have done any work on that didn't seat the rings was put together by some sporty car racers who used assy lube on the walls and another shop that we do machine/balance work for who has his mechanics assemble the engines. They used assy lube and installed the rings upside down with the gaps all alligned


We use ordinary 30wt on the walls for assy.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

For engine assembly lube I use Lubri-Plate, only place I've seen it around here is at NAPA.... I do this as per a retired aircraft mechanic (cousin also).....That's all they ever used on both piston and jet engines when putting them together..(United States Airforce and Delta Airlines)..He's built hundreds of auto/truck engine in the last 47 years......

for the cylinder walls, I use a light coat of 30wt engine oil and the same on the rings.....all bearings and oil pump get Lubri-Plate....it's a white grease about the same as your wife's hand cream......

You can probably do two or three engines with one tube and it's not expensive.....

I agree with Clois, check everything not once, not twice, but three times....One other thing I do is mark every bolt/nut when I torque them... I use red finger nail polish from my daughter, just a small dab on the bolt or nut and you know it has been tightened or torqued...........

Clois; after the dyno session, I would pull the spark plugs and give each cylinder a shot or two of WD-40 before setting up the motor and then turn in over by hand a couple of times and then store it, should protect the cylinder walls and rings for quite a while...also, say, once every couple of weeks turn the motor over by hand a few revolutions, keeps things from sticking and keeps a little lube on everything.....

David

[olddog]

I watched a 406 chevy SB, assembled, dropped into the car, and raced all in the same day. They wanted a fast break in on the rings. Rubbing alcohol was used to wipe down the cylinders and also used as a lube to slide the pistons in. Of course it all evaporates in minutes, leaving a dry cylinder, piston, and rings. The engine was fired and held at 5000 rpm for a few minutes. Then it was tuned, and as said raced that night. That engine ran 3 seasons before it was pulled down. No problems.

Me, I like a little light oil. I would prefer Blykin’s WD-40 to the alcohol, but I think they are getting to the same thing – a quick ring break in. From what I have seen it all works. It seems a question of how big a hurry you are in to get the rings seated verses how much risk are you willing to take.

PS
I have heard it claimed that too much oil can cause the top ring to carbon up and stick on start up

[Rick Parker]

Not wanting to steal the thread but I was wondering what the correct protocol would be for a Fresh never before run, roller cammed small block engine that has been setting for an extended period of time over (at least 2 years) before fire up? Car is in state of construction. Anything specific other than pouring oil over the rocker gear and spinning the pump to build pressure while rotating crank by hand, And squirting a little oil through the spark plug holes??

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by Rick Parker

Not wanting to steal the thread but I was wondering what the correct protocol would be for an roller cammed small block engine that has been setting for an extended period of time over (2 years) before fire up? Car is in state of construction. Anything specific other than pouring oil over the rocker gear and spinning the pump to build pressure while rotating crank by hand, And squirting a little oil through the spark plug holes??

Not really, I helped start up an engine that had not run in about 2 years, we pulled the spark plugs, squirted a shot or of engine oil and hand rotated the motor a few turns, then I pulled the valve covers and distributor and primed the oil pump with a drill till I saw oil coming out of all the pushrods and kept it going for about two full minutes insuring everything was bathed in oil and then fired it up, no problems...................

I hate to store a motor for any extended length of time, but sometimes it can't be avoided.... A buddy has a spare 4 cyl, 40 hp engine for his tractor, been sitting in the corner of his shop for at least 10 years now, at least every two to three weeks, when he walks by, he'll turn the engine over by hand 3 or 4 times, keeps things from seizing up and keeps the pressure of the same valve springs.....

David

[blykins]

Clois,

It should be a stout engine.

I used the Procomp heads on my buddy's 383 that I was talking about. They're not bad heads, and they are definitely reasonably priced. The only issue I found with them was that the valve cover holes were all shifted a little bit down and were spaced off from each other a little more than they should have been. It made it a little hairy to get the valve covers to 1. fit and 2. clear the rocker arms.

I can't wait to see the dyno results.

[Clois Harlan]

Thanks for all your input I really appreciate your opinions,

First let me say that this is the first time I have every used any kind of assembly lube on a cylinder wall and it was suggested by a very reputable builder. I skimped on that procedure because I took a very small amount of the lube on a white rag around my finger and put about a thin 1" circle about mid way up the cylinder. In the past I have only used WD 40 or a light coat of 30W motor oil during the piston assembly.

I got my oil pump in yesterday and it had some damage to the input shaft so I called Summit and they immediately sent my replacement out and arranged to pick up the damaged one. They were very appologetic for the problem. I personally think they are great to do business with.

For now everything is on hold until I get the last couple of parts to button everything up and take it down to the dyno. Back in the bag it goes.

Clois

[LoBelly]

I really like posts like this giving experiences of builds

Particularly where people are prepared to share the parts list other than the premium items - its really easy to always recommend the top dollar option but advice on the 'good value bang for buck' and newer, perhaps less well known items is particularly useful.

Have to back Clois on his opinion of Summit. They sent me a replacement module no questions asked when I explained it burning out on initial start up - some months after the purchase (and I'm 1/2 way round the world).

Good luck with the engine and the coupe Clois and keep the posts coming

LoBelly

[Barry_R]

I used to sell a piston ring set - or two - on a regular basis.

I use normal motor oil on cylinder walls and rings. A very thin film rubbed into the parts is fine. You do not need to dunk or soak them. Motor oil is what will be lubricating those parts forever - and what they should start out with.

The idea of firing an engine with metal-to-metal contact dry amazes me, and yet many otherwise intelligent folks do it. A request for instant scuffing. WD40 or rubbing alcohol or any other mystery sauce is near equally wrong in my humble opinion. Why introduce an unknown variable - like an oil with untested temperature, ash, and burning characteristics - into the critical, tight tolerance and highly stressed ring seal area of an engine?

[olddog]

I hear you Barry. I thought the alcohol trick was going to fail for sure. Gave me the willies. They claimed the secret is the high rpm on startup slings oil onto the cylinders, and that starting it and letting it idle would not work.

Just one thought to ponder. On a normal engine, the oil control rings leave damn little oil for the top rings to ride on. When you pull an engine down, the top rings appear to be dry. Under normal operation, the top rings do not see much oil. I know there has to be some there, but it isn't much. Come to think of it, the top ring likely sees more gasoline than oil on the compression stroke. Anyway if I were to form a theory how this works, it would be that the rings don't need much lube to bengin with.