Solid roller lifter failure

[Jac Mac]

Originally Posted by blykins

Jac, a 408 is a 351W block....9.500" deck.

Hi Brent, yes realise that. Was speaking in general terms, the only blocks that are not really rev kit friendly due to space are the 8.200SBF & 8.700 Dart etc. I have often built my own rev kits for oddball stuff like Holdens etc that we have ''down under'', just used inners out of Dual Spring kits & spun up lifter collars & spot faced underside of pushrod holes in heads/or made up locator plates etc .

[blykins]

Ah, I see what you're saying.

[bermblaster41]

To be up front......I love the motor. I had it dyno'd back in july. 400 torque at 2600 rpm and max hp 437 at 5900 rpm at the rear wheels. The motor is a 408 with afr 205 heads(fully cnc'd) vic jr intake 850 quick fuel double pumper msd ignition with rev limit at 6000rpm. The motor is very streetable with no driving issues. I have driven other cobras with roush motors and was not disappointed with my motor. I guess what I am after is to pick the right lifter and hope not to have to change them ever 5 k miles. There is a video of my chassis dyno in this small block forum. Again thanks for your input guys. Berm!

[vector1]

i'm running a solid roller with the isky ezx rollers, which are a solid bushing instead of the needles. little pricey, but they are supposed to be the sliced bread of the solid roller lifters. i have a little over 40 hrs on the engine now, and lately i haven't read of any failures, initially there were some though and they have supposed to have made changes. these are not pressure fed btw.

like the previous guys have said, low idle and the pounding they take will kill a set faster then anything. mine idles at 1600 because of the vacuum advance hooked to the manifold but wouldn't let it go less then the 1200 neighborhood if i were using solid rollers.

a lot has to do with the lobe profile in making the lifters last along with lash, ditto with using hydraulic lifters and revving to higher rpm. my 406 has 244/244 and is supposed to peak hp at 6600, i would imagine yours to be 7g or above. your not running resitrictors to the top end are you?

since you have the engine apart, you might consider going hydraulic, then you have to reconsider your valve spring setup also. if i have one iota of problems with my solids, i would go back to hydraulic, can't beat set it and forget it.

[patrickt]

High zinc, solid lifter cam friendly oils can be delivered to your door. High quality solid lifters are easily available. Quality cams are everywhere. The "danger window" of cam failures is in the past. If you want a high revving, street friendly, track friendly, low idle tolerant, long lasting, low maintenance and exceptionally cool sounding engine, solid flat tappets are the way to go. We're back where we were before the "they're trying to kill our engines" scare of a few years ago. Don't be afraid to put them in your Cobra.

[Hotfingrs]

Here's my 2c's on this subject... CompCams is pure crap. I ruined 2 engines with their lifters. Neither engine lasted 4 months. First engine broke rollers off one lifter and several others had loose or no bearings. Second engine had 2 broken lifters and 6 with no bearings. My spring pressures are 205 closed and 610 open. Cam is 712 lift and 310 duration. This is my small block chevy engine. Routinely shifting at 7500 or more. This is also a solid roller cam.

After talking to CC they told me with my spring pressure, their lifters should last 800 miles and their spring should last 1000 miles. You can imagine what I told them they could do with their lifters. So I spent the winter call different companies and talking about their lifters. All the top fuel and funny car guys are running Crower lifters. When I called Crower, the first thing they asked was if I was happy with the spring pressures I was running. I told them I was. They said keep using them, you'll never have a problem with our lifters, and you won't have to rebuild them like other companies. I bought a set of their lifters with the HPPO option, and they were in my engine for 5 years before I built my new engine last winter. They showed no signs of wear.

Needless-to-say Crower is also in my new engine. BTW I was running the 875 Ford lifters in that old engine. I can't say enough about Crower, and I always tell my engine builder...if you put anything CompCams in my engine, you better sell it to someone else.

[patrickt]

Running 9's.... I was just thinking that your car could probably beat mine in the quarter mile even if your car was off and you had to start it up, put it in gear, and take off after I had already left the gate.

[Excaliber]

My solid roller lifter engine had about 8,000 miles on it when I lost a roller lifter. I got the car with about 5000 miles on it. From what I've read if you get 10,000 on solid rollers your doing good! THAT is the primary reason I won't use or recommend them. I drive my car WAY to much for such a low mileage part to be acceptable.

I went through extraordinary steps to break in my solid flat tappet, it's a big hassle and fraught with risk if you don't get it right. The biggest issue was removing the inner valve springs for break in and then having to reinstall them after break in, PITA.

MAYBE I'd go with PF solid rollers, probably not. Hydraulics of any kind are out of the question for me, just not my style, period (I'd be embarrsed to admit I was running hydraulic). Yeah, I know, their terrific, which is kind of like the argument that "modern" whatever parts are better. OK, I'm sure they are, whatever...

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by patrickt

High zinc, solid lifter cam friendly oils can be delivered to your door. High quality solid lifters are easily available. Quality cams are everywhere. The "danger window" of cam failures is in the past. If you want a high revving, street friendly, track friendly, low idle tolerant, long lasting, low maintenance and exceptionally cool sounding engine, solid flat tappets are the way to go. We're back where we were before the "they're trying to kill our engines" scare of a few years ago. Don't be afraid to put them in your Cobra.

Pat,
This is not meant in the spirit of the verbal duels we've had in the past with no ill will, criticism or irritation factor.

Everything in your description about flat solids is true-I have one myself and agree completely. However the point you left out is the fact that rollers, either solid or hydraulic will make more power than a flat solid of the same lift and LSA. That's why guys like Hotfingrs use them and many are willing to swap springs or lifters every year if they have to. He found quality Crower lifters and has 5 years on them with 600+ open pressure-excellent.

The more aggressive ramp rates allowed by rollers account for that. I have routinely seen 15 to 60 more HP in A to B testing between the two types of cams. (with the same lift and LSA) The rollers all had slightly more duration because they could open and close them more rapidly.

Some guys want the last HP and conform to the needs of a very aggressive setup. It's about the POWER for them, not the noise or 'coolness factor'.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Pat,
This is not meant in the spirit of the verbal duels we've had in the past with no ill will, criticism or irritation factor.

Everything in your description about flat solids is true-I have one myself and agree completely. However the point you left out is the fact that rollers, either solid or hydraulic will make more power than a flat solid of the same lift and LSA. That's why guys like Hotfingrs use them and many are willing to swap springs or lifters every year if they have to. He found quality Crower lifters and has 5 years on them with 600+ open pressure-excellent.

The more aggressive ramp rates allowed by rollers account for that. I have routinely seen 15 to 60 more HP in A to B testing between the two types of cams. (with the same lift and LSA) The rollers all had slightly more duration because they could open and close them more rapidly.

Some guys want the last HP and conform to the needs of a very aggressive setup. It's about the POWER for them, not the noise or 'coolness factor'.

I will agree that, in theory, a roller will provide more power than a flat tappet. However, a flat tappet, in most of our motors (certainly big FEs) can easily provide the maximum horsepower that can ever truly be used in a Cobra (we've debated that numerous times and everyone tends to agree that the magic maximum number after which additional horsepower is useless begins with a "5"). I bet you would agree that, if a solid flat tappet was providing 600 horsepower, and a roller would provide 650, there would be no performance reason to switch to the roller and, further, the roller would almost certainly require changing out in 8,000 miles or less -- thus making it less desirable.

[blykins]

Berm, you're peaking at 5900?

Something is up. Were the durations you quoted advertised durations instead of .050"?

That cam is way too big to peak at 5900...especially with excellent flowing heads like the 205's.

You guys with flat tappet cams need to get out of the 60's and into modern technology.

There are several engine builders on Club Cobra.....ask all of them what kind of cam they prefer and which one is the easiest to install/break-in. Not one of them will say flat tappet, unless it's for a race class that mandates flat tappet stuff.

[Excaliber]

Gessford Machine, whom I bought all my parts through mostly for access to the knowledge base that came with them, estimated I gave up about 150 horse.

It is difficult to FEEL the difference! It can be measured however. I went from 11.90 solid roller to 11.99 flat tappet. But it wasn't all the cam, custom pistons added quench so I could run more advanced timing. Compression ratio dropped from 12.5 to 9.6 to run pump gas. Smaller carbs, along with the other mods, doubled my mpg, that is significant because it means my effective cruise range per tank of gas also doubled!

Once you have enough h.p. to reach traction limits h.p. above that amount is "interesting" but if you can't hook it up, it's not practical. Shift points fell from 6800 to 6200 rpm. I usually shift at 6000 anyway, just to save the motor. I'm in this motor for the long haul, not a season of racing.

Why wouldn't a professional engine builder recommend a flat tappet? That's easy, I wouldn't either! To much hassle and risk with the break in. WAY easier, less risk, longer warranty and more income to recommend a hydraulic. Now a real man... OK, I won't go there.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

...ask all of them what kind of cam they prefer and which one is the easiest to install/break-in...

If I captioned my build around "what was easiest for the builder" I'd be driving an FFR. A monkey can break in a hydraulic or roller cam. If I ran an engine assembly line I'd push my customers towards something that was easy to break in too. After all, you get paid the same... why put yourself out, right?

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by patrickt

I bet you would agree that, if a solid flat tappet was providing 600 horsepower, and a roller would provide 650, there would be no performance reason to switch to the roller and, further, the roller would almost certainly require changing out in 8,000 miles or less -- thus making it less desirable.

I would agree but the reality is that a solid flat can rarely touch 600HP (even in 482 form) in an FE unless over 12.5, on C 14 and with heads that flow 340 to 380. Which is why many builders like Keith who build pump gas 482's routinely over 600 use only rollers. His heads are well ported at 340 or so and it's just an easy, less expensive way to give a customer the big number. There are many guys who just want the 'big number' and won't or can't use more than 5/10's of the car's envelope.

Your point is that the cars can seldom apply more than 500 in a usable manner so the solid flat is sufficient for that and who needs the maintenance and parts expense. I agree to a point as I run 11's with only 465 WHP and I wanted to keep my car in the configuration that the originals made their legend- a road race-capable, all around sports car. Not a single purpose drag car.

The reality is that more than a few guys have found (and love) that you can 'have it all'- power approaching 700, drag tires and in some cases, live axles. Guys want to run 9's and 10's and don't care about sports car capabilities. They chose a Cobra rep because it's the lightest package to put on the road or track.

Surely you've seen the German vids on here of the 900 and 1100 BBC-powered freaks that they run on old airfields and drag strips. There is also an Aussie guy who runs 9's with wing and chute. They spend on the equipment to hook the cars for a thrill ride.

It's really horses for courses and trying to sell one configuration as the 'right way' doesn't apply anymore. The replica universe is huge and diverse.

See Brent's comments just above -he's talking to us.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

See Brent's comments just above -he's talking to us.

You mean where he says "I'm just looking for the easiest way to break in an engine?" Yes, I responded to that.

[blykins]

Absolutely not. I don't look at it that way.

When I build an engine, I don't want the customer to have horrible issues with it, even if it's not my fault.

Even if I told the customer that I had washed my hands after assembly and whatever happens during the break-in is their baby, it would be 1. a horrible attitude to have as a builder and 2. very bad to see the customer have to disasseble the entire engine, clean, replace parts, and rebuild because of some stupid flat tappet piece of junk.

I don't know who built your engine, but if I even have a valve cover leak, I worry about it. Also, a lot of customers are not engine savvy, and I wouldn't put it past some people to slander your name all over the earth because they didn't break a cam in correctly.

Honestly, with all the crap that you have to go through to get a cam to break-in, I don't see the worth of running them at all. All the different additives...break-in oils, break-in springs, low ratio rocker arms, running at 30 minutes at rpm, etc. It's all bogus junk.

And the thing is, NO ONE is above wiping the lobes off of a cam. Keith Craft has done it, Barry Rabotnick has done it, you can't even get away from it by having the cam company out west break-in your cams on a machine. It's just not worth the hassle.

[patrickt]

... and didn't Steve Sunshine post an exhaustive analysis at one time that the absolute limit of usable horsepower was more like 530? That's for regular race Cobras, not Bonneville slingshots. I could be wrong on that, though... but I think I'm right.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by patrickt

You mean where he says "I'm just looking for the easiest way to break in an engine?" Yes, I responded to that.

NO Pat,
I meant where he says:"You guys with flat tappet cams need to get out of the 60's and into modern technology."

[blykins]

You left out the smiley face that I put at the end of that sentence.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

You left out the smiley face that I put at the end of that sentence.

I could tell it was there by your inflection.