Solid roller lifter failure

bermblaster41 · #1 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 12:05 PM

I had one of my roller lifters have the needle bearings fail. These are not pressure fed like some on the market. Just checking to see if this is common . My cam was damaged a bit but was able to have it repaired. I have a little under 5000 miles on it. Just wanted to see what other members have had good luck with. I am looking at the comp cams solid roller lifters that are pressure fed. Any suggestions would be appreciated. My lifters are the top ones on this hyper link page http://camresearchcorp.com/ Thanks Bermblaster

patrickt · #2 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 12:29 PM

The reports over on the Ford FE forum are that the pressure fed solid roller lifters extend the useful life out by roughly 50%. What that means is that instead of the 3000-5000 miles you get 7500 miles before you need to pull them. I'll see if I can find a thread on that for you. If you don't like the idea of changing your lifters out in another 5000 miles or so then you should go solid flat tappet. Once you get past the break-in, and put a thousand miles on them, they will last the life of your car.

EDIT -- Here's a thread, and darned if it isn't our own Brent Lykins quoting 7500 miles for PF solid roller lifters. http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182...th+roller+cams

blykins · #3 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 01:12 PM

Pressure fed lifters should last a long time if the idle is turned up so that they get enough oil.

There are lots of engines out there with thousands and thousands of miles on them while running street roller cams.

The Isky and Crower lifters are supposed to be a little higher quality than the Comp lifters, but the Comp Endurex lifters seem to work just fine.

patrickt · #4 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 01:16 PM

Brent, I'm sure I recall a thread where you said "Patrick is right, go with solid flats, they're God's gift to the Cobra community." But I just can't seem to put my finger on it....

blykins · #5 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 01:18 PM

Yeah, let me know if you ever find that.

patrickt · #6 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blykins

Yeah, let me know if you ever find that.

He didn't mention what his engine was, and since we're in the Small Block forum I'm going to assume it's not an FE. But you know that a lot of very well-built FEs only score in the teens for oil pressure at idle. Do you feel comfortable with those kind of numbers and a solid roller cam?

bermblaster41 · #7 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 01:30 PM

I have a stroked 408. Just don't understand how the OEM roller lifters can last 100k plus and not have problems. Is it the fact that it is a solid roller? Thanks for the input. My oil pressure at idle is around 30psi and under load around 65psi. Berm

blykins · #8 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 01:32 PM

Just checked his gallery....if that's his car, then you're right, it's a small block.

The last solid roller FE I built was pushing about 25 psi at idle. I had it idled up at about 1100-1200 rpm to get some crank splash as well.

patrickt · #9 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bermblaster41

I have a stroked 408. Just don't understand how the OEM roller lifters can last 100k plus and not have problems. Is it the fact that it is a solid roller? Thanks for the input. My oil pressure at idle is around 30psi and under load around 65psi. Berm

The short answer is that the OEM rollers that last that long are all hydraulic and thus have no lash. Solids get slammed by the lash.

blykins · #10 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 01:36 PM

Berm,

OEM roller lifters are hydraulic rollers.

A hydraulic roller lifter stays in contact with the cam lobe at all times.

A solid roller lifter is bounced off of the lobe because of valve lash. The needle bearings take a shock load in addition to valve spring pressure.

If you're wanting to keep the horsepower of a roller cam along with no maintenance, you can switch to a hydraulic roller camshaft.

For the Cobra community, I have no trouble recommending a solid roller cam (with pressure fed lifters). Most Cobras don't see a lot of miles per year.

Flat tappet cams used to be an option years ago with oil additives were in their prime, but these days, you're taking a great risk when you go to break in a flat tappet cam. Not only do you lose horsepower compared to a roller lobe, but you risk wiping the lobes off the cam and scattering metal throughout the entire engine, which necessitates a rebuild.

I won't build an engine without using a roller cam.

jdean · #11 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 01:37 PM

Is it a radical profile cam with a lot of spring pressure? These factors can decrease the life quite a bit.

bermblaster41 · #12 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 01:51 PM

The cam lift is .600 and duration@.050 is int 252 and exhst 255. Thanks Berm

patrickt · #13 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bermblaster41

The cam lift is .600 and duration@.050 is int 252 and exhst 255. Thanks Berm

Brent will agree that's a big-ass cam.

blykins · #14 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 02:06 PM

For a 408, yes it is. However, there are street roller grinds around that duration that aren't that hard on lifters/springs. It all depends on what the duration at .200" lift and the advertised durations are.

Comp's street roller grinds have about 38-42 degrees between advertised duration and .050" duration, which isn't bad for a solid roller. They also have less duration at .200".

You can run these cams without wild spring pressures and I wouldn't care a bit to run one in a street car.

Comp also has some wilder lobes (take the TK lobe for instance) with around 28° difference between .050" and advertised durations. They also spend a lot of time with the valve open and then open/set it down fast/hard.

scottj · #15 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 02:07 PM

I ran a set of Crower extreme duty roller lifters (not PF) for over 4000 mi with a full race lobe and 250# seat pressure. I went through 3 sets of valve springs and was still on the original lifters. The biggest killer of solid roller lifters is not enough spring pressure. With a street grind roller and pressure fed lifters I would expect lifter failure to be a non-issue... as long as you check lash frequently and spring pressure occasionally (keeping records). Lash getting tighter is normal, lash getting looser indicates a problem.

Take a lesson from Ernie a.k.a. Excalibur who has been the most outspoken member on here against solid rollers. Some of the long time members will remember when he bought his ERA with the solid roller FE. Upon receiving the car he checked the lash and found some huge numbers... .060"-.070" or something like that. So, he adjusted them properly and then went out and blew up a lifter...which I would expect... and has been blaming the solid lifters ever since...

Ditto on the Crowers over the Comp Cams.

blykins · #16 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 02:10 PM

FWIW, the cam for my 552ci BBF going in my Fox Mustang will be a solid roller.

patrickt · #17 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blykins

FWIW, the cam for my 552ci BBF going in my Fox Mustang will be a solid roller.

OK, so what are you gonna tell Berm to buy? I know you won't get on the solid flat tappet bus, so I won't even try that.

Jac Mac · #18 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

The short answer is that the OEM rollers that last that long are all hydraulic and thus have no lash. Solids get slammed by the lash.

Rev Kit should help with this to keep the roller in contact with the lobe, Yes I realise its a tough ask with an 8.200 block, but with all the conical springs etc available today it might be worth looking into.

blykins · #19 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 02:24 PM

Well, if he wants my suggestion, I would ask about the purpose of his car. If it's a just a street cruiser, I would say it's over cammed and he'd have a lot more fun with some bottom end on that motor. I would imagine that he's peaking at about 6600-6800 rpm now depending on what heads/intake he's using. I think he'd have a lot more fun with some low/mid range power.

If it's a late model roller block, he could get a nice XFI hydraulic roller cam and a set of OEM lifters for about the price of a good set of pressure fed solid roller lifters.

If it's a non-roller block, you could either be careful and drill/tap the lifter galley for a lifter spider and use OEM lifters, or you could use link-bar hydraulic roller lifters.

If he wants to stay with a solid roller and spin the motor a little more, I'd invest in a good set of lifters and have the springs checked to see if they still have the pressure that they should.

blykins · #20 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 02:25 PM

Jac, a 408 is a 351W block....9.500" deck.