What in the heck am I doing wrong!! Clutch issues

[Pman1961]

I've just recently did a engine/tranny swap and I'm currently sorting out the car. Ever since I replaced my old with a new clutch reservoir, slave cylinder and bracket I am not getting enough travel to fully engage my clutch. Got it well enough to put in gear (difficult) reverse is damn near impossible and if you gas it stopped while if first gear it lurches forward. Let me start with the components. Kirkham billet aluminum clutch master cylinder, clutch slave cylinder, bracket and Ram clutch assembly purchased from B2 Motorsports. I'm only getting around 7/8" of travel at the slave cylinder. My friends SPF with similar set up appears to be getting around 1-1/4" travel measuring the best I can from above and on a warm engine. I even put my original slave cylinder and bracket with the same results. There are two other SPF's in my area that are using the Kirkham master cylinder so rule that out. Okay, this is how I'm bleeding the cylinder from the very beginning. First...I have my buddy hold the clutch down and I open the bleeder valve on the slave cylinder. Close the valve and the pedal is returned to the up position. Repeat this set several times to get the bulk of the air out. Second...while my buddy is holding the pedal to the floor I open the valve and then push on the slave cylinder rod to get the air out and then close the valve before releasing push rod and repeat this a few times. Third...we hook up a radio controlled fueling device or pump after the device has been spun in some fluid to prime the pump. Using the pressure side hose it is slipped over the bleeder valve of the slave cylinder. The other hose of the pump goes to the master cylinder so all we are doing is recirculating the fluid. Fourth...I open the bleeder valve at the slave cylinder while my buddy cranks the pump. The valve leaks at the threads but still circulates the fluid and he indicates he can see air bubbles dissipate as he pumps fluid through the system. I have taken all the slack out of the push rod to see if I gain any throw but it does not make a difference. (Brent, in case you read this thread I know you don't approve but this is just testing here.) When I push the pedal all it has is resistance. My buddies with the additional travel has resistance and then eases up as you reach the floor. There has got to be air still in the system. What am I or we doing wrong or come to Memphis and fix her and I'll treat ya to some good ole southern barbeque?

[gsharapa]

It sounds like you are bleeding it ok but wonder what pivot pin and position are you using inside the bellhousing as if the angle isn't correct you won't get enough travel. Have you talked to David Kirkham if you are using his parts?

[Pman1961]

Pivot ball is adjusted per Ram Clutch requirements. I originally set the pivot ball in the new Quick Time bellhousing the same as the original Tremec bellhousing. When I had motor and tranny out recently I set the pivot ball a little higher which changed the angle of the clutch fork slightly but this did not affect the push rod travel length. The Kirkham reservoirs are an upgrade several Cobra owners have been doing. You can purchase the tanks and brackets from Kirkham and Olthoff sells the braided lines and hardware. So this is nothing unique and as I stated three other SPF owners local have this arrangement as well. Again....it's gotta be air!

[blykins]

Think there's any chance that you have a bad master cylinder?

[jhv48]

You mention that you changed both the slave cylinder and master cylinder.

Are they the same sizes as the old ones (I believe they were both 7/8")? Make sure. If the new master is 3/4" and the slave is 7/8", you will experience exactly what you are experiencing. If they are the same size, then one or the other is most likely leaking internally. Put the original M/C and slave back on and see if the problem persists.

Is the foot pressure the same as before?

[vatdevil]

Where did you mount the Kirkham resivor? Did you bleed the master cylinder?

[Pman1961]

jhv48 and vatdevil....The master cylinder is a Kirkham unit and Olthoff supplies the lines. The attached link is of my buddies car which I have the same setup. Winter project on my SPF I put on my original slave cylinder and bracket today replacing the slave cylinder and bracket I purchased through B2 Motorsports with same results. The master cylinder is nothing but an aluminum canister or reservoir for the fluid so it is bled when the system is bled. I was getting a very slight leak at the reservoir as the bottom would get wet with fluid. I took it off yesterday and took apart and put back together as possibly the fitting underneath needed a little more wrenching. Just went out there and looked now and it is dry. I'm not going to be able to enjoy my car until this is resolved and I'm getting a little frustrated.

[Pman1961]

jhv....I reread your post. How do you determine what size the master cylinder it is (3/4" or 7/8") if it is nothing more than a tank? Foot pressure I can't recall as I have a different clutch. It feels firm all the way as my buddies gets easier the last few inches of travel as his clutch is fully engaging and mine is not quite there.

Brent if you are reading this thread what size slave cylinder do I have?

[Bill Bess]

I had a problem sort of like yours...just not enough travel in the rod after bleeding the system to make the clutch work.

To solve my problem was to "push the slave cylinder piston in/or all the back into the slave cylinder . Release the bleed valve while pushing the piston back into the cylinder, this forces out any residual air remaining in the slave cylinder. Close the bleed valve.
Now with the piston all the way back..adjust your clutch rod to fit the space. This should give you optimum travel in the slave cylinder.
Worked for me, Good luck, Bill

[CHANMADD]

Originally Posted by Pman1961

jhv....I reread your post. How do you determine what size the master cylinder it is (3/4" or 7/8") if it is nothing more than a tank? Foot pressure I can't recall as I have a different clutch. It feels firm all the way as my buddies gets easier the last few inches of travel as his clutch is fully engaging and mine is not quite there.

Brent if you are reading this thread what size slave cylinder do I have?

It sounds like there is a bit of confusion here. Did you replace the reservoir or the master cylinder? The reservoir is a tankk and the master cylinder is a piston in a cylinder??????

[Pman1961]

Chanmadd...If your calling the master cylinder the slave cylinder then yes I've replaced it with one purchase from B2 Motorsports. However, I have the same issue when I put back on the original slave cylinder that came with the car. Neither is leaking. I just can't seem to get more travel. And yes the original plastic reservoir was replaced with a Kirkham unit.

[dallas_]

I recently had a very similar issue.

I had a 13/16" master cylinder and did not get enough travel with the slave cylinder rod to fully engage the clutch.

I replaced the master with a 1" cylinder and it solved the problem.

Since it sounds like you replaced your slave cylinder you may need to replace your master also.

[Dana E.]

Perry,

Which clutch fork setup are you using? Is the pivot on the passenger side of the bellhousing? If it is, adjust the pushrod like Bill said in an earlier post, but don't bottom out the slave cylinder-you need to leave some travel because as the clutch wears, the clutch fork moves towards the rear of the vehicle.

If you have someone helping you when bleeding the clutch, just have them depress the pedal once and hold it down while you open the bleed screw. Do this a few times until there are no air bubbles in the fluid. You don't need to push on the pushrod or the clutch fork. If you pump the pedal multiple times before opening the bleed screw, you will aerate the fluid. If you still don't have enough travel, you can adjust the clutch pedal up higher to get more travel. There is an adjustment on the master cylinder pushrod under the dash.

[jhv48]

Ok, now I get it. You did NOT replace the master cylinder. You did replace the slave and the fluid reservoir.

That makes things a little easier to diagnose. If your slaves (either one) are only moving 7/8 of an inch when compressed, then you have some residual air in the system, or your master cylinder developed an internal leak (not very likely). Did you let all the fluid drain from the master cylinder when you changed the slave and reservoir? If so, then you need to bleed the master cylinder also.

When you depress the clutch pedal, does the slave move immediately or is there a lag?

[vatdevil]

On my SPF there's a bleed port on the master cylinder. Might be worth a try to bleed it there, if your car has one. Make sure the clutch pedal is returning fully up when bleeding, if not pull it up. Make sure the Kirkham resivor is mounted higher than the master cylinder.

[Pman1961]

jhv48 correct. The reservoir was replaced and when the slave cylinder was replaced the system drained down. I feel like there is air in the system too and to answer your question 'yes' the slave cylinder moves as soon as the clutch begins to be depressed. Pardon my ignorance in the earlier post as I'm old school. I'm used to mechanical linkage. Always figured there should be a master cylinder but did not see it until Dana mentioned in a post. How do you bleed the master cylinder or access it? Do you remove the cover panel adjacent to the steering rod at the firewall to access? To answer another question I used the method Bill Bless stated as in my original post for bleeding purposes along with using the pump. Dallas..since three other local Cobra owners have the same setup it seems to me the master cylinder should work unless Superformance changed sizes of the master cylinder from a earlier car to a later series car but makes sense what you suggest. Dana..my helper depressed the pedal and held. No pumping of the pedal. Are we getting closer yet? Do I need to bleed the master cylinder?

[menace1]

CLICK HERE
This site has lots of info on slave cylinders and clutch adjustments and should answer most of your concerns, Hope this helps,

Glenn

[akfish]

Did you replace the reservoir line to the master?

edit to add ,never mind just read the you didn't know there was a master.

and you shouldn't have to use a power bleeder.

[Dana E.]

Perry,

If there are no air bubbles in the fluid when bleeding the system at the slave cylinder, and the pedal feels firm, don't worry about bleeding the master cylinder. It sounds like the clutch pedal may need more travel. With the setup I have, the clutch pedal is about 1" higher up than the brake pedal to get enough travel for the clutch to release. Look up under the dash at the linkage going to the clutch pedal. Loosen the 1/2" lock nut on the clutch master cylinder pushrod at the clevis, turn the pushrod out two or three turns to set the pedal height about 1" than the brake pedal, tighten the lock nut and see if that makes the clutch release better.

Dana

[Jerry Clayton]

Did you use a lot of teflon tape like your buddy did????

Also---did you put the clutch disc in correctly??/(correct side against flywheel)

Did you let the weight of the trans bend the center of the clutch while aligning the trans to bell housing??(this is a common thing when amatures do a clutch)