Mark III Build

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

Yea, I know it is plenty but the goal was 600 and that is not close.

You will never, ever, ever, ever be able to tell the difference. Never.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by patrickt

You will never, ever, ever, ever be able to tell the difference. Never.

Apparently I think I have a small pecker and I wanted the bragging rights to say 600. The ultimate problem is I am honest.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

Apparently I think I have a small pecker and I wanted the bragging rights to say 600. The ultimate problem is I am honest.

I'll just photoshop the dyno sheet for you to bump it up to, say, 617 HP, and you can just tell people you had it dyno tuned by Lykins. That's what everyone else does.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

You will never, ever, ever, ever be able to tell the difference. Never.

Never is a very long time.

Bill, personally, I think if your target was 600, then your target should have been met. But that's just me.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Bill, personally, I think if your target was 600, then your target should have been met. But that's just me.

OK then, target met.

[RodKnock]

Could you do a better job at least?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Could you do a better job at least?

No, not without being paid a ridiculous fee. But you know that dyno sheets are the equivalent of financial statements for companies that carry off-the-balance-sheet debt.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Never is a very long time.

Bill, personally, I think if your target was 600, then your target should have been met. But that's just me.

I agree, trust me he is aware I am disappointed. But the car that should have been done in late April is not going to be done until late June. If I held it up to revisit the engine it would be late August. It is hard to find a 18 x 12 snow tire.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

No, not without being paid a ridiculous fee. But you know that dyno sheets are the equivalent of financial statements for companies that carry off-the-balance-sheet debt.

Lawyers! Always looking for handout or at least billable hours.

Are you telling me that engine builders fudge dyno numbers? So what you're saying then is that your 428's "honest" 450HP is actually smaller than that?

Wow, it might be faster pushing it, of course, you would have to find it in the garage first.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

I agree, trust me he is aware I am disappointed. But the car that should have been done in late April is not going to be done until late June. If I held it up to revisit the engine it would be late August. It is hard to find a 18 x 12 snow tire.

Just purely from a consumer advocate's point of view, and I do this often as many know here, notwithstanding Patrick sounding off about inflated dyno numbers, I would think engine parts combinations are fairly well-known at this point. Intuitively, you would think there's a well-known combination of "a+b+c" = 600HP.

My apologies, seriously, I'm not trying to be a PITA to anyone. But, I had another poor experience recently when I purchased an item. A completely different situation having nothing to do with cars, but I just get tired of it. So I'm just trying to empathize with you.

Maybe I've reached the "curmudgeon stage." And Patrick can likely empathize with me there, since he's been at this stage for awhile now. I say "likely" because I'm not sure he could show empathy.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Just purely from a consumer advocate's point of view, and I do this often as many know here, notwithstanding Patrick sounding off about inflated dyno numbers, I would think engine parts combinations are fairly well-known at this point. Intuitively, you would think there's a well-known combination of "a+b+c" = 600HP.

My apologies, seriously, I'm not trying to be a PITA to anyone. But, I had another poor experience recently when I purchased an item. A completely different situation having nothing to do with cars, but I just get tired of it. So I'm just trying to empathize with you.

Maybe I've reached the "curmudgeon stage." And Patrick can likely empathize with me there, since he's been at this stage for awhile now. I say "likely" because I'm not sure he could show empathy.

I appreciate the thought. As this point I want to move on. A process that should have been fun was a bit frustrating. This industry never heard the expression, under promise and over deliver.

[rodneym]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

A process that should have been fun was a bit frustrating.

Welcome to the world of Cobras.
You got a badass motor built by arguably the best.

[blykins]

Wait until you put sidepipes on it. You'll lose another 100 hp.

Barry is one of my competitors, but I want to speak up on this.

It's a number. Don't discount the whole car and engine build experience because of a number. It's a dyno number. It's a dyno number that would change if you drove a couple of hours in another direction and put it on a different brand of dyno. Put it on a Superflow and most likely you'll see another 5%. I would rather have a 550 hp engine that out-performs a buddy's 600-625 hp engine.

There's nothing wrong with conservative dyno numbers....you will most likely clean out every ditch in Detroit anyway. Most guys have no clue what 550-600 hp is like in a 2400 lb car with a 90" wheelbase.

Another note....

As an engine builder, I've learned to "feel out" customers. This means pick up on queues in their emails, phone calls, etc. Some customers will tell you that they want 600 hp, but they keep stressing that they want it to be very streetable, idle at 500 rpm and be able to pull a horse trailer at the same time. If you spend your entire time driving at 2000-2500 rpm, another 30 hp at 6000 won't mean much, but how it behaves at those low rpms is going to be paramount.

And another note....

It absolutely burns my butt when guys jump and down saying that they have to have the engine immediately, but months later, they are still waiting on the car. You don't want to the engine to be sitting while waiting for the car. I've got guys who 2-3 years later (no lie) are still trying to get the car finished. Doesn't work like that...

I've been contracted to build a 482 for a forum member. It was nice to hear him say, "I will not need the engine until the beginning of next year, so let's just go at a slower pace." It was also nice to hear him say, "I'm going to spend most of my driving in the 2500-4000 rpm range, so let's favor more streetability and torque." I patted him on the back over email.

You have a very nice engine. And yes, Barry is one of my major competitors, but all engine builders "get" what the others are going through and sometimes it doesn't hurt to speak up.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by blykins

Wait until you put sidepipes on it. You'll lose another 100 hp.

Barry is one of my competitors, but I want to speak up on this.

It's a number. Don't discount the whole car and engine build experience because of a number. It's a dyno number. It's a dyno number that would change if you drove a couple of hours in another direction and put it on a different brand of dyno. Put it on a Superflow and most likely you'll see another 5%. I would rather have a 550 hp engine that out-performs a buddy's 600-625 hp engine.

There's nothing wrong with conservative dyno numbers....you will most likely clean out every ditch in Detroit anyway. Most guys have no clue what 550-600 hp is like in a 2400 lb car with a 90" wheelbase.

Another note....

As an engine builder, I've learned to "feel out" customers. This means pick up on queues in their emails, phone calls, etc. Some customers will tell you that they want 600 hp, but they keep stressing that they want it to be very streetable, idle at 500 rpm and be able to pull a horse trailer at the same time. If you spend your entire time driving at 2000-2500 rpm, another 30 hp at 6000 won't mean much, but how it behaves at those low rpms is going to be paramount.

And another note....

It absolutely burns my butt when guys jump and down saying that they have to have the engine immediately, but months later, they are still waiting on the car. You don't want to the engine to be sitting while waiting for the car. I've got guys who 2-3 years later (no lie) are still trying to get the car finished. Doesn't work like that...

I've been contracted to build a 482 for a forum member. It was nice to hear him say, "I will not need the engine until the beginning of next year, so let's just go at a slower pace." It was also nice to hear him say, "I'm going to spend most of my driving in the 2500-4000 rpm range, so let's favor more streetability and torque." I patted him on the back over email.

You have a very nice engine. And yes, Barry is one of my major competitors, but all engine builders "get" what the others are going through and sometimes it doesn't hurt to speak up.

It all boils down to lack of communication. If it was not going to hit the number it should have been pointed out it plain terms long before we are standing in front of the dyno cell.

I asked for something and paid the bill, no complaint on price, no negotiating. Why come up short? Was that last 40hp going to make it undrivable?

[blykins]

Undriveable? No. However, I suppose it comes down to what you consider "driveable". In your PMs to me from several months ago, you kept saying that you felt 600 hp was "over the top" and you weren't sure you would use it. Honestly, those are legitimate concerns. Guys get over-fixated on a number. Why 600? Why not 650? Why not 700?

I would imagine that some tuning without the air cleaner to optimize the A/F ratio, would have got you closer to your goal. However, you're going to put the air cleaner right back on it, plus choke it out with under-hood air flow and temperature.

Honestly, I think you probably shot Barry in the foot by crippling the engine with that air cleaner (it's not anywhere near optimal for that size engine).

Don't get me wrong, communication is key in any transaction and there has been times where we've all stunk at it. However, I personally think you're being over-critical given the circumstances.

[olddog]

Your welcome to your feelings I will not argue with that, but the flat torque curve on that engine is exactly what I would want in an engine.

A little more cam/springs or some porting and sure you could get the last 40 Hp, but I would bet you will loose more torque down low, where you will be driving 95% of the time, than you will gain up top. No sir, I wouldn't touch that engine. Glad you feel you don't want to take the time, as you are going to like this engine more than the one you wished for. "Thank God for unanswered prayers."

At least that is my opinion.

OBTW
On an engine if this size 1 deg of timing can make a 50 hp change. A little higher octane fuel and some wreck-less timing and he could have made the target. A less scrupulous builder ????

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

Don't get me wrong, communication is key in any transaction and there has been times where we've all stunk at it. However, I personally think you're being over-critical given the circumstances.

The problem is that the personality traits that afford someone the ability to drop six figures on a stupid toy are the some traits that can make them difficult to deal with.

[blykins]

You're preaching to the preacher.

[RodKnock]

Holy cow. Engine building is not magic, discovering a cure for cancer or rocket science. The formula to make a 482 produce 600 HP is readily and widely available.

Just get the job done. A long time ago, my first boss taught me a valuable lesson, which is expressed as follows: "One time, On time, First time."

Honestly I just get tired of excuses. Sorry those are my feelings.

[blykins]

Maybe your boss should have explained to you about air flow restrictions...

I've already said more than I should. This isn't my fight...it's between Bill and Barry. However, making 600 hp with a proven combination is different than making 600 hp with restrictions imposed by the customer.