Mark III Build

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Honestly I just get tired of excuses. Sorry those are my feelings.

Brent's right. You're just one of the PITA, over-paid type guys that can't get along with anybody.

[Detroit Bill]

I did not intend this to go this way.

I am sure Barry was looking after my interests. I found nothing in our dealings that was anything less then upright and honest. He has the ability to make an engine make whatever power he wants, he has certainly seen it all and then some.

Due to circumstances of mine and his, cell time was limited. He wanted more time to continue to develop the tuning. It was no where near fully tuned. I did ask for the filter to be added and I am glad I did.

The engine is no doubt a top quality piece. I am sure if I had time Barry would have gotten more "dyno" power out of it. It was not going to make 600, maybe leaning it out to the edge and adding a velocity stack might had gotten close.

Bottom line to me.

Barry is a top notch engine builder, the best.
If he is to be accused of falling short I would say he is not a great communicator. I fault myself for not pushing it thinking we were on the same page.

In hind sight would I have chosen a different builder? NO. This guy wrote the book. Is it as good as a Ford FE can be built, yes no doubt in my mind.

Did I want to see the 600 on the dyno even with the velocity stack, sure.
Would it matter in the real world, no. I am not a dummy, I did not get to where I am by being a dummy.

I do not want to back a guy into an internet corner for sure. Barry is an upright guy no doubt and he misread the tea leaves. I am probably to blame for some of it.

SO, LETS GET READY TO RUMBLE!

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by blykins

Maybe your boss should have explained to you about air flow restrictions...

I've already said more than I should. This isn't my fight...it's between Bill and Barry. However, making 600 hp with a proven combination is different than making 600 hp with restrictions imposed by the customer.

Maybe your boss should have discussed strategy, planning and communication with your clients.

As I said, the recipe is widely available for years. Air cleaners or not. Plan for it. Communicate. Again simple $hit that can be easily done. Lots of 482 engines out there that can produce 600 hp. Duh.

[blykins]

Rod, I don't know if you're trying to be intentionally inflammatory or not.

However, you do have a point. There is a recipe for 600 hp with a 482 ci FE.

But here is where your point becomes null and void: when the customer throws in a soda straw air cleaner in the middle of the build and no time to tune, all bets are off.

My carb guy and I will routinely sneak another 20-30 hp through a combination by carb tuning and timing adjustments. I have picked up 20-25 hp alone on some street applications just by changing the timing a few degrees. I started out with 600 (600!) hp with David Brown's 496. We ended up with 683 after a day of tuning.

For goodness sake, there were two dyno sheets shown....one ended up at 12.5:1 A/F and the other was at 12. Way too rich.

Again, I really have no dog in this fight, but Barry is less likely to come on here and argue with a customer publicly. However, if this would have been my customer, talking about how disappointed he was after hamstringing me with a tiny air cleaner and no time to tune, I would be livid.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by blykins

Rod, I don't know if you're trying to be intentionally inflammatory or not.

However, you do have a point. There is a recipe for 600 hp with a 482 ci FE.

But here is where your point becomes null and void: when the customer throws in a soda straw air cleaner in the middle of the build and no time to tune, all bets are off.

My carb guy and I will routinely sneak another 20-30 hp through a combination by carb tuning and timing adjustments. I have picked up 20-25 hp alone on some street applications just by changing the timing a few degrees. I started out with 600 (600!) hp with David Brown's 496. We ended up with 683 after a day of tuning.

For goodness sake, there were two dyno sheets shown....one ended up at 12.5:1 A/F and the other was at 12. Way too rich.

Again, I really have no dog in this fight, but Barry is less likely to come on here and argue with a customer publicly. However, if this would have been my customer, talking about how disappointed he was after hamstringing me with a tiny air cleaner and no time to tune, I would be livid.

No time to tune was not all my fault. A hose blew on the dyno and had to be fixed. It burned an hour.

[blykins]

Fair enough.

Find a good chassis dyno guy and sneak some more power out of it.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

Fair enough.

Find a good chassis dyno guy and sneak some more power out of it.

Rod and I will tune it this weekend in our driveway and provide a dyno sheet showing 700HP. Piece o' cake....

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by blykins

Rod, I don't know if you're trying to be intentionally inflammatory or not.

However, you do have a point. There is a recipe for 600 hp with a 482 ci FE.

But here is where your point becomes null and void: when the customer throws in a soda straw air cleaner in the middle of the build and no time to tune, all bets are off.

My carb guy and I will routinely sneak another 20-30 hp through a combination by carb tuning and timing adjustments. I have picked up 20-25 hp alone on some street applications just by changing the timing a few degrees. I started out with 600 (600!) hp with David Brown's 496. We ended up with 683 after a day of tuning.

For goodness sake, there were two dyno sheets shown....one ended up at 12.5:1 A/F and the other was at 12. Way too rich.

Again, I really have no dog in this fight, but Barry is less likely to come on here and argue with a customer publicly. However, if this would have been my customer, talking about how disappointed he was after hamstringing me with a tiny air cleaner and no time to tune, I would be livid.

Brent, if I'm the engine builder, then I'm going through my checklist of items to be discussed with the client along with any potential HP goals PRIOR TO THE ENGINE BUILD AND PRIOR TO ANY CONTRACT BEING SIGNED. So any air cleaner discussion is completed upfront. The air cleaner should have been discussed prior to the build, but if the client surprises the engine builder with a "soda straw" air cleaner during the build, then further communication about HP goals should have taken place and some type of buyer "waiver" signed along the lines of a change order, but stating reduced HP goals so engine builder manages expectations via client communication. The client deviated from the "recipe" and that should have been documented so we wouldn't be here at all.

I'm not trying to burn anyone. I have no "dog in this fight" either. But I see a problem and I also see a solution with strategy, planning and communication throughout the entire process.

[blykins]

A lot of times, the customer has no idea of how much hood clearance he will have. All-in-all, a 482 at least deserves a 4x14" air cleaner, or if it's in a pickup truck, as much air cleaner as is aesthetically possible. In a Cobra, it is what it is. The hood clearance and shape of the hood really puts a damper on things.

I seem to have a different view of dynos than my customers. I bolt them up to make sure they don't leak, knock, fart, blow smoke, and the A/F ratio is as close as I can get it here. Customers just want a dyno sheet with numbers on it. I know the numbers will change the instant something else is added to the engine, if it's taken across country, etc.

Frankly, if we were to look at the "bottom line number" after all the "power suckers" were removed, then honestly we'd have to aim for 700-725 hp engine numbers before it's choked down by tiny air cleaners, under-hood air flow and temperatures, header designs, sidepipes, etc. We simply can not account for all parasitic power losses on the engine dyno. That's what a chassis dyno is for.

It seems like you and I are both in the same boat here, innocent bystanders with an opinion, only having the data that Bill has included in the past 4-5 pages of text. However, I just felt (and still do) that Bill's initial recap of how much disappointment he had was unwarranted and I've explained my reasons for that.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

Frankly, if we were to look at the "bottom line number" after all the "power suckers" were removed, then honestly we'd have to aim for 700-725 hp engine numbers before it's choked down by tiny air cleaners, under-hood air flow and temperatures, header designs, sidepipes, etc. We simply can not account for all parasitic power losses on the engine dyno.

... and he still won't be able to push the throttle more than about two and a half inches before the wheels break loose and his rear comes out from under him. Dyno numbers with the engine out of the car are always fake. Some just more fake than others.

[blykins]

Dynos vary. I'm not and haven't been convinced that it's a malicious intent; I think it's just the conditions of the dyno room and the conditions of the day. Barry's dyno and the dyno I use seem to be fairly close to each other. There are others within driving distance of my place that would make me a hero.

If guys would go into a dyno session viewing it as a baseline to compare tweaks/changes, and to insure quality, then a lot of this useless banter would go away. A dyno is never an end-all/be-all. For instance, I built a 408C drag race engine that made the most power on the dyno at 28° total timing, but picked up ET when my guy went to 30°. Go figure.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

If guys would go into a dyno session viewing it as a baseline to compare tweaks/changes, and to insure quality, then a lot of this useless banter would go away.

Or if they would just be happy if the builder tried his best. After all, that's all you can really ask from anybody... unless you're RodKnock, who apparently expects his builder to open a vein and bleed on the floor for him....

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by blykins

However, I just felt (and still do) that Bill's initial recap of how much disappointment he had was unwarranted and I've explained my reasons for that.

I hardly went nuts, I said"
Engine is done. Dyno'ed at 562 hp at 5600 rpm and 578 tq at 4100 RPM.
I was disappointed that it came in below the target set but doubling back to correct it would take time I do not want to spend as the summer slips away. Given more time on the dyno I think more power could have been realized but I could not stay longer unfortunately."

I also said the car was late. I did not say it was all the engine. I did not push Barry knowing the chassis was late.
The under promise and over deliver was directed at Superformance also.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by blykins

Frankly, if we were to look at the "bottom line number" after all the "power suckers" were removed, then honestly we'd have to aim for 700-725 hp engine numbers before it's choked down by tiny air cleaners, under-hood air flow and temperatures, header designs, sidepipes, etc. We simply can not account for all parasitic power losses on the engine dyno. That's what a chassis dyno is for.

I did not ask to spend more time on the dyno (although I am sure Barry would have done it without hesitation) because it would serve no purpose. The engine ran fine, did not miss or smoke, did not leak and started well. I think the only way to tune it is in the car for the reasons you pointed out above.

That is my plan, to get it on a chassis dyno. Knowing it is a bit rich is good. Too lean can do damage.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

I also said the car was late. I did not say it was all the engine. ...
The under promise and over deliver was directed at Superformance also.

Uhhh, if you wanted that then you should have bought an ERA. Peter actually shipped me my finished car before he even figured out how much I owed him. And then they all went on Christmas vacation and didn't get around to billing me until well in to January. He said "yeah, but I knew you were good for it."

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Uhhh, if you wanted that then you should have bought an ERA. Peter actually shipped me my finished car before he even figured out how much I owed him. And then they all went on Christmas vacation and didn't get around to billing me until well in to January. He said "yeah, but I knew you were good for it."

Their lead time is pretty long like 7 months last I heard and I have heard they are late by a recent purchaser so I don't think they would meet the definition either.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Or if they would just be happy if the builder tried his best. After all, that's all you can really ask from anybody... unless you're RodKnock, who apparently expects his builder to open a vein and bleed on the floor for him....

Patrick, when lawyers take cases, I'm sure they have complete frank discussions about the case and potential results based upon the lawyer's training and experience. And they document those discussions so the client and lawyer are both on the same wavelength. Doctors must advise their patients of all outcomes based upon their training and experience and document it in the same way.

All I'm saying is that any engine builder should have a checklist of questions and then discuss it with their client prior to taking a job. In no particular order and it's not an exhaustive list by any stretch, but here's a VERY simple checklist:

1. What's your budget?
2. What is the intended usage of the engine/car?
3. How much HP/tq would you like your engine to make?
4. What exhaust will you be using?
5. What air cleaner will you be using?
6. What type of car and will you be using a hood scoop?

Here's a range of outcomes to generally expect.....

And if something happens to change the original plan make sure you communicate with your client and have some sort of written correspondence that shows that the client is infomed of the change and it's possible outcome(s) and then proceed assuming the client approves. To me, it's just managing the client's expectations. That's all.

Bill, I'm sorry for derailing your build thread. But I come from both sides of this consumer/industry issue. And from someone looking in from the outside, it just looks like Business School 101 to me.

And NO, I'm not trying to be inflammatory to anyone, but as I've mentioned before, I'll usually be an advocate for the consumer in most instances.

[patrickt]

... here's a VERY simple checklist:

1. What's your budget?
2. What is the intended usage of the engine/car?
3. How much HP/tq would you like your engine to make?
4. What exhaust will you be using?
5. What air cleaner will you be using?
6. What type of car and will you be using a hood scoop?

Here's a range of outcomes to generally expect.....

And if something happens to change the original plan make sure you communicate with your client and have some sort of written correspondence that shows that the client is informed of the change and it's possible outcome(s) and then proceed assuming the client approves. To me, it's just managing the client's expectations. That's all.

Ahhh, c'mon... most of these guys are just barely making a living and bustin' their asses to do it. They don't have time for paperwork, informed consent, educating the consumer, or anything else. They're just trying to survive.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

I hardly went nuts, I said"
Engine is done. Dyno'ed at 562 hp at 5600 rpm and 578 tq at 4100 RPM.
I was disappointed that it came in below the target set but doubling back to correct it would take time I do not want to spend as the summer slips away. Given more time on the dyno I think more power could have been realized but I could not stay longer unfortunately."

I also said the car was late. I did not say it was all the engine. I did not push Barry knowing the chassis was late.
The under promise and over deliver was directed at Superformance also.

Just in jest at this point Bill, I'll leave this right here..... I guess "nuts" is a relative term.

"I was disappointed that it came in below the target set but doubling back to correct it would take time I do not want to spend as the summer slips away."

"Yea, I know it is plenty but the goal was 600 and that is not close."

"I agree, trust me he is aware I am disappointed."

"A process that should have been fun was a bit frustrating. This industry never heard the expression, under promise and over deliver."

"I asked for something and paid the bill, no complaint on price, no negotiating. Why come up short? "

[blykins]

Patrick, are you playing the part of Rod's antagonist, or just adding fuel to drama?