Great Asp's Superformance - FE Build

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Great Asp

I am getting an opinion developed on this.

Interesting, being first is quite a learning experience.

E

We love opinions. Opine away.

[rokndad]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Personally, I'm still waiting for the "full report" on the Dynatek. So, the party is NOT over. Keep posting away.

Rodney and Eric,

You'll both love this. I was at the Edelbrock car show on Sunday at their headquarters and was parked next to CSX 2239, a very nice old B-production racer. At least four people stopped by to chat about the car and asked "are those the new "Dynotek" (sp) fuel injectors?" "Where'd you hide the wiring?" I had to internally chuckle. Dynatek has made a name for itself at least to the general public that reads car mags. The younger attendees kind of had a saddened look when I told them they were Webers carbs but the older folks, like me, perked up and smiled. Eric, at least you can say "they're real" Dynateks.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by rokndad

Rodney and Eric,

You'll both love this. I was at the Edelbrock car show on Sunday at their headquarters and was parked next to CSX 2239, a very nice old B-production racer. At least four people stopped by to chat about the car and asked "are those the new "Dynotek" (sp) fuel injectors?" "Where'd you hide the wiring?" I had to internally chuckle. Dynatek has made a name for itself at least to the general public that reads car mags. The younger attendees kind of had a saddened look when I told them they were Webers carbs but the older folks, like me, perked up and smiled. Eric, at least you can say "they're real" Dynateks.

What kind of response did you think you were going to get from the "Fast and Furious crowd."

I was recently riding in a car with a 20 something male who didn't even know what a Cobra was. How old did that make me feel.

I may have to install the Dynatek EFI setup, just so my car can be recognized and potentially identified at the next event.

[rokndad]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

What kind of response did you think you were going to get from the "Fast and Furious crowd."

I was recently riding in a car with a 20 something male who didn't even know what a Cobra was. How old did that make me feel.

I may have to install the Dynatek EFI setup, just so my car can be recognized and potentially identified at the next event.

Then you can say, "yes they're real (like Teri Hatcher) and no it's not chrome".

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by rokndad

Then you can say, "yes they're real (like Teri Hatcher) and no it's not chrome".

Yep, the Dynatek will be "real" but the car is a "replica."

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

What kind of response did you think you were going to get from the "Fast and Furious crowd."

I was recently riding in a car with a 20 something male who didn't even know what a Cobra was. How old did that make me feel.

I may have to install the Dynatek EFI setup, just so my car can be recognized and potentially identified at the next event.

OMG. The tail wags the dog yet again. I'd have webers except I was unwilling to except the responsiblity of owning them.

I have the chrome halon extinguisher between my seats, and more than a couple of kids ask "Hey, is that NOS???"

I have to say this when it comes to the Dynatek system on an FE motor. While I was at the Shelbyfest, it was clear that there were some VERY nice cars there. There were at least a half dozen other replica Cobras, not to mention the score of Super Snakes, GT-500s, KR (both new and old), and even a legacy GT. But with my hood rasied, men would walk by, look while passing by, then circle back and really look at the engine. Not just another Cobra..

From guys that I know have raced, driven, and owned all kinds of Fords, I got fantastic remarks on the motor.

I rolled out early, and got the "Waynes World - We're not worthy" hand signal from many people and small crumb crunchers on the way out.

Wow factor???? Yeah, it's got it hands down.

E

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by Great Asp

Scott, Thanks for the kind words. You would have to ask Keith about what he thinks. I am still running out the car, and general operation of the car is great.

Rod,

I know enough to be dangerous.

I "originally" did not want to learn about the fuel injection, but as I get into the tuning of the car I can tell you that it isn't THAT hard.

I am doing homework right now to find out what ECU would do the best job of managing the system, and then switching over. I am sure the harness will need changes, but more where it connects to the ECU, since the inputs (O2, throttle sensor, etc...) are already in place.

If anyone has thoughts on the ECU's, this would be a good place to post them!

E

Check out the FAST XFI system. Its got good software, its relatively easy to tune, not overly expensive and has many useful options. I recently used the fast XFI on an ERA cobra with a TWM system on a 482 FE motor and got good results. Check out our website for more information on the car and the EFI setup on it:

http://www.anitafred.net/Cobra.htm

You can also see our build thread on this system for more information on the FAST XFI:

ERA 753 - Final Assembly in Progress

Let me know if you have any questions about the FAST system or EFI in general. We've build two cars with EFI (the other one is a 1963 Blown and Injected Corvette - see my gallery or the website for some pics) and I am hooked. Don't think I'd do another performance street machine without EFI.


- Fred

[Great Asp]

Fred,

Thanks!

The Cheif Tuner for Dynatek told me "the software must contain a very important offset for bringing in extra fuel against throttle position". I really think I will need to review all options when I get ready to change the ECU out. I am guessing that will be at the end of this years driving weather.

But first the gas tank.

The standard SPF unit needs help. The best I can tell it has no baffles, and no sump. I may fab a surge tank with a seperate pump and return to the main tank, or fab a bigger, new tank with a surge area. The standard unit is fine for a carb based system, but EFI needs pressure and a half full tank of gas in my car has the gas in the back of the gas tank when I take off under throttle, and the fuel pump cavitates, then the Dynatek system is "unhappy", which pisses off my motor

E

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by Great Asp

Fred,

Thanks!

The Cheif Tuner for Dynatek told me "the software must contain a very important offset for bringing in extra fuel against throttle position". I really think I will need to review all options when I get ready to change the ECU out. I am guessing that will be at the end of this years driving weather.

But first the gas tank.

The standard SPF unit needs help. The best I can tell it has no baffles, and no sump. I may fab a surge tank with a seperate pump and return to the main tank, or fab a bigger, new tank with a surge area. The standard unit is fine for a carb based system, but EFI needs pressure and a half full tank of gas in my car has the gas in the back of the gas tank when I take off under throttle, and the fuel pump cavitates, then the Dynatek system is "unhappy", which pisses off my motor

E

You are smart to get your fuel system into shape before upgrading the rest of the system. Baffles are a good idea. You do not absolutely need a sump as long as you have decent baffles and you keep you tank at least 3/8 full or more. I don't have a sump on my Cobra as it would show from the back of the car. I do have one on my corvette. The thing to watch is that you don't plumb the return into the tank too close to the pickup line as the agetation caused by the returning fuel will then to send air into the pickup line if they are too close. Its also a good idea to have whomever modifies the tank for a return install a tube that causes the return fuel to come out near the bottom of the tank where it will be covered by fuel. This will also help avoid agetation and air getting into the pickup line. You will probably need to install larger lines to and from the tank to a regulator in the engine bay to ensure that you can hold a constant fuel pressure at all engine loads.

- Fred

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by fkemmerer

You are smart to get your fuel system into shape before upgrading the rest of the system. Baffles are a good idea. You do not absolutely need a sump as long as you have decent baffles and you keep you tank at least 3/8 full or more. I don't have a sump on my Cobra as it would show from the back of the car. I do have one on my corvette. The thing to watch is that you don't plumb the return into the tank too close to the pickup line as the agetation caused by the returning fuel will then to send air into the pickup line if they are too close. Its also a good idea to have whomever modifies the tank for a return install a tube that causes the return fuel to come out near the bottom of the tank where it will be covered by fuel. This will also help avoid agetation and air getting into the pickup line. You will probably need to install larger lines to and from the tank to a regulator in the engine bay to ensure that you can hold a constant fuel pressure at all engine loads.

- Fred

Great info Fred!

I really think I am going to build a bigger gas tank, and you are spot on with the return line. They installed mine right next to the pick-up

I will check the line size, but it is pretty big right now.

I need a gas tank ex-spert....

Thanks again Fred!

E

[xlr8or]

Eric it can be done with your existing tank. Did this exact thing to a friends SPF. Fab up a 1 gallon surge pot and feed the FI from there with -10. Run the FI return line (probably -8) to the surge tank and then vent the surge to the main tank return (-6). Use a standard electric pump from the main to to the surge tank (-6).
This way the small fuel pump only has to keep up with the fuel that is actually burned and the big pump always has a steady supply.

Works great and you don't have to mod the existing tank.

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by xlr8or

Eric it can be done with your existing tank. Did this exact thing to a friends SPF. Fab up a 1 gallon surge pot and feed the FI from there with -10. Run the FI return line (probably -8) to the surge tank and then vent the surge to the main tank return (-6). Use a standard electric pump from the main to to the surge tank (-6).
This way the small fuel pump only has to keep up with the fuel that is actually burned and the big pump always has a steady supply.

Works great and you don't have to mod the existing tank.

Guys,

One thing to consider when building a system like this for street use relates to fuel heating and associated cooling needs of the fuel pump. These problems become more important in higher horsepower (500 hp+) applications where a larger pump is used. Pumps capable of supporting high horsepower applications will heat the fuel some as they cirulate it. A larger tank provides more cooling area and a large reservior of fuel to allow the heat that is generated to disipate. In high HP applications, you might also consider a fuel pump controller which will run the pump at a lower speed below a certain RPM point (say 2500 RPM) which helps to limit fuel heating, makes the pump quieter in the RPM ranges where you can hear it, and helps to extend the life of the pump. As far as fuel line sizes go, I would say that -8/-6 for the feed/return lines would be the minimum size to use. -10 from the tank to the pump is a good idea and you want to try to mount the pump below the tank if possible. You should also plan to use a pre and a post filter before and after the pump. You have some important choices to make relative to your fuel pressure regulator also. The best setup would be a vacumn reference regulator if that works with the intake manifold that you will be using. This involved running a vacumn line for a common plenum that averages the vacumn reading from each runner on your intake to the regulator. This setup ensures a constant pressure difference across your injectors which in turn improves the accuracy of their ability to meter fuel. This is not essential on a naturally aspirated setup but it will improve drivability a bit. I do not have this type of regulator on my Cobra's TWM setup but I do use it on my blown Vette motor (see below) which sees a much greater range of intake pressure variation from cruise to WOT. I would recommend that you install a quality fuel pressure gauge and/or a sensor which will let you see or record your fuel pressure while you operate the engine This will be needed to accurately setup the fuel pressure initially and will give you a means to ensure that you have full fuel pressure when you entine is operating at full load. A fuel pressure sensor which can be read by your ECU is also helpful as you don't need to add a gauge to your dash which was not there on the orignal cobra (or be trying to watch it when you should have your eyes on the road). Good sources for filters/pumps/regulators would be either Weldon or Aeromotive.

I am using an Aeromotive setup on my Cobra to feed a 482ci FE motor with a TWM intake making about 650 hp. The pump and one of the filters are mounted inside the driver's side rear fenderwell. I am also using a fuel pump controller set to switch the pump from reduced speed to full speed at 2400 RPM. This device also functions as a fuel pump relay and would require connections for RPM, FP Relay Control from the ECU, and an hi-speed override switch to be run from your dash area. I am using a stock ERA aluminum tank with a return line fitting and tube installed on the passenger's side (the fuel pickup is in the middle of the tank). I am not running a sump. My lines from the pump to the engine compartment are both made from 1/2" ID aluminum tubing (equivalent to -8 feed and return lines). I am using the fuel pressure regulator which came with my TWM intake (it is not vacumn refenced). The following are some pictures of my setup for your reference:



This is a picture of the fuel pump and post filter. The pre filter is mounted on the front of the tank and cannot be seen in this picture.



This picture shows the fuel pump controller (box on the left) which is hidden behind a removable panel in the trunk.



I've mounted a set of toggle switches under the dash on the drivers side. One of these controls the hi-speed pump override which forces the fuel pump to run at full speed no matter what RPM the motor operates at. This is useful if the car is raced. BTW, the other switches control a remote battery cutoff relay, a dash indicator which can be used for either the ECU's "check engine" light or as a "shift" light, an enable switch for the 2-step RPM limiter, and an enable switch for the ECU's on board data recorder.

Just for reference, this is a picture of the fuel pump and tank setup on my Blown and Injected Vette which feeds a 383 ci SBC making about 625 hp:



This system uses Weldon components and does not use a fuel pump controller. I purchased a new stock tank and modified it for a sump and a return line fitting with a tube which is on the passenger's side of the tank. I built a bracket to hold the pump, pre and post filters, and fuel block to install everything neatly of the cross member in fornt of the tank. Both of these setups feed motors which are making 600 - 650 hp. The vette motor (shown below) has higher fuel requirements that the Cobra motor due to the supercharger.



You can see the Weldon boost/vacumn reference fuel pressure regulator mounted on the back of the supercharger (is the gold and black part).

I would use either of these setups again on a street driven vehicle. Its probably best to get a new replacement tank for your car and have it modified if that is possible. Many welders will be a little relucant to try to modify a tank that has been filled with gasoline for obvious reasons.

I hope all of this information helps you.

- Fred

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by xlr8or

Eric it can be done with your existing tank. Did this exact thing to a friends SPF. Fab up a 1 gallon surge pot and feed the FI from there with -10. Run the FI return line (probably -8) to the surge tank and then vent the surge to the main tank return (-6). Use a standard electric pump from the main to to the surge tank (-6).
This way the small fuel pump only has to keep up with the fuel that is actually burned and the big pump always has a steady supply.

Works great and you don't have to mod the existing tank.

xlr, Yup, I am considering this also. I really want more capacity also, as 17 gallons in not really a bunch.

any pics from your surge build available?

E

[xlr8or]

I'll have to check with the guy who has it.

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by xlr8or

I'll have to check with the guy who has it.

Thanks X!

E

[Great Asp]

I got 2715 out for a cruise this morning and took some vid. Now all of the footage is in Mexico, no US or state laws were broken.

The video set-up I am using for this is a pocket DVR


Custom rollbar mount and lipstick camera




Okay, I am not familiar with the roads in Mexico, and I am just getting used to missing third some of the time. The video quality is only intended for track reference and tuning, and yes the audio is horrible. I'm working on it!

Other than that…..enjoy!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGBokpq6u94

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRi8IpmkVK8


E

[Great Asp]

As you who have followed my build know, I have had some start-up issues with my build.

I have promised updates but with finding out the cause of the problems I have felt that it was better to wait until I had a handle on the problem(s).
First I should say that with a full tank of gas () this car starts, drives, idles, and pours on power like no Cobra I have owned before. I fact any car that I have had that was not a late model car, I would say this engine and induction system is better, a lot better. More on that later.

One BIG issue I have found is that the A1000 pump is a gravity feed pump, and it does not suck, except air if it gets a big gulp of it. The air drops pressure to the Dynatek system, and it then runs bad. So I have looked into a swirl tank with an auxiliary pump to keep it topped off, but I really do not like the sound that the A1000 pump makes.

Having wanted a larger tank anyway, I contacted Rodney from this site as he had previously constructed a 22-gallon tank for his Superformance, and asked if he could do it again, except this time with a Aeromotive Stealth sump built in. So today I got the 18651 unit in from Summit (pics below) and I forwarded it off to Rodney to be incorporated into my new tank.







Aeromotive normally recommends the unit for rear tank mounting in any race car application, but this one will get mounted in the bulkhead of the new tank, as I am not crazy about the race car look.

Features include a dry primary 100 micron filter (you can change it without draining the tank), the pump is in the tank (I am told by Aeromotive’s engineer it is much quieter), and the all important surge area. There is a pump baffle that goes over the pump which I did not take a picture of. The surge volume works out to be around 5 gallons.

I very much appreciate the positive help that you guys on this forum have provided! Thought you guys might like to see

E

[Great Asp]

I had a problem with hard acceleration making the fuel run to the back of the tank, away from my fuel pump line.

So we built this tank





The white doors are Fuel safe trap doors to allow the gas to get into the surge area (about 3-1/2 gallons) and of course the doors seal when the gas trys to get out.



The Stealth system had to be recessed for clearance reasons.

Now finished!



E

[cdnus]

Did the cop come back to check you out????

Craig

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by cdnus

Did the cop come back to check you out????

Craig

LOL, no.

I was a little worried, if you noticed I shutdown once I saw him.

I wasn't really going that fast, but I was making a lot of noise.

E