Cobra setup for tracking

[sspano01]

thanks David, definately going to add some more safety gear and recheck my bolts again.
I'll have to ask Dan about turn 9 :O
I am going back to Watkins 30/31 of this month and he is supposed to be there I think.
Just placed the order for my Avon's today!!

[RICK LAKE]

sspano01 I see you are biten and sick as hell. Some of us recover, others get sicker, and some relax and go with the flow"easy in and easy out" Any way If we are going to get crazzzy on this, check and change the brake fluid. 3 is good, 4 is better for more heat in the system.
New list of things to do
Add more ducting to brakes front and rear.
Add 3 4" in fans to help remove hot air from motor area and one to send cooler air down trans tunnel to cool rearend and trans.
You already have found out about tracking the car and the oil pressure issues with not running a dry sump setup. Dont wait too long on this. 5,000 rpms and low to no oil for 1/2 a second is major damage. I you said it a forgot, is this a crate motor from FORD? Either way limit the motor to 6,000 rpms and shift a little more. A am sure you are out of the HP range about this time. Max you ever want to go is 500 rpms pass max HP. You are just wasteing motor after that rpm limit.
Have fun with new tires, Get the road race seat. This makes a ton of different with driving and not having to hold your weight in location. Make sure it is bolted to the floor and use large fender washers on both sides for handling the weight of you and your seat in high "G" turns. Good luck. See the doctor but a think you are gone too far to be saved. Small side note I learned over the years, It's not the right way to drive through turns that pull "g's" but back off the throttle a little and let the speed carry you through. I think this helps with keeping oil going to the right placed and having the oil pan refill quicker. Rick

[dallas_]

Good info.

I just signed up for my first track day so I'll be using some of these tips too.

Steve, keep us posted on your progress!

John

[sspano01]

@Rick - hah hah! I think you are right. My wife says I am an all-or-nothing type of person. I was thinking of adding some air ducts to the front brakes, thats a simple addition. Accusump is on order
My engine is similar to a ford crate, but it has some different components. I need to get it on a dyno this year because I think its running pretty good now with the EFI tune I have. Its a 521 inch big block, so i think the power band is something like 1500 to 5000. At least that is what the computer model said, certainly feels that way!

@Dallas - good for you!! Don't overreach your limits, it will take a few laps to get used to being passed by volkswagon GTIs and Miatas :O. But they are fun to catchup with on the straights.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by sspano01

@Rick - hah hah! I think you are right. My wife says I am an all-or-nothing type of person. I was thinking of adding some air ducts to the front brakes, thats a simple addition. Accusump is on order
My engine is similar to a ford crate, but it has some different components. I need to get it on a dyno this year because I think its running pretty good now with the EFI tune I have. Its a 521 inch big block, so i think the power band is something like 1500 to 5000. At least that is what the computer model said, certainly feels that way!

@Dallas - good for you!! Don't overreach your limits, it will take a few laps to get used to being passed by volkswagon GTIs and Miatas :O. But they are fun to catchup with on the straights.

Don't know what oil pan you have on the 521,accusump is good,a good road race pan is a must,even with an accusump...
Miatas:the scourge of road racers, rememeber an open track event when I got my a$$ handed to me badly by a 100 pound,20 something year old GIRL in her Miata she drove to the track!!!!!
David

[DoIBugu2]

I know the Miata's handle great, but do they handle that much better than a Cobra on the track?

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by DoIBugu2

I know the Miata's handle great, but do they handle that much better than a Cobra on the track?

YES, if your talking about the average "street" Cobra!!!!!!! An FFR Spec Racer is a whole nother game......

A pretty much stock Miata with maybe good brakes/tires/driver on a short tight road course where all out HP is not the game, will lap a street Cobra at least once in a 10 lap run!!!!!!
On road course that have longer straights and more open turns, a Cobra's HP will fair better, but the Miata will still post better lap times....

At the Grand Bayou Circuit where I race, the Spec Miatas turn laps in the 1:25 to 1:27 range, the exact same lap times us Vintage V-8 guys turn and we're driving 2800 to 3000 pound cars with 450 to 525 hp!!!!!!!!!!!!!

David

[DAVID GAGNARD]

There is also another saying with racers:

Good Auto X's generally make good road racers, and good road racers DO NOT generally make good Auto X's...................

I'd certainly recommend trying auto x before getting on road course, you'll get a chance to run your car as hard as you want but at lower speeds and get the "feel" of how it handles in sharp turns as well as hard braking all at lower/safer speeds.......and be humiliated by 16 year old kids in Honda Civics!!!!!!!

David

[Bobcat]

sspano01... you asked about 2 1/2 degrees negative camber on the street .... don`t do it as it wiil eat up your tires on the inside . It`s a pain , but I reset my camber etc before track time and then reset it for the street after the track . As you get faster , you will find that your brakes will probably not be good enough . I have street pads and track pads and change before going to the track and then after the event . Again , it`s more trouble , but keeps you from not being able to stop once you really start using the brakes hard . The ducting others mentioned is pretty much a must in my book .
You asked about my Avons and tire pressures . I start at 25 psi COLD on the front and 23 psi COLD on the rear . You will gain as much as 10 psi on a hot track after the tires come up to pressure . Just take it somewhat easy for a few laps until you get some heat in the tires .... you`ll be able to feel it .
Measure your tire pressure right after you come in and see what your buildup is . Take some white shoe polish and paint the inside and outside edges of you tires to see how much they are rolling over .... old school , but it works and is cheap . Tells you if you need more air or less .
Keep a detailed log book so you know what works and what doesn`t .... and I mean record everything ... air temps , clear , cloudy , everything .
Otherwise , have fun .... which you sound like you are already having .

David ... on the Miatas , X20 . At VIR , you don`t want to try to keep up with them in the uphills or any of the other tight parts , as they will eat you alive .

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by Bobcat

sspano01... you asked about 2 1/2 degrees negative camber on the street .... don`t do it as it wiil eat up your tires on the inside . It`s a pain , but I reset my camber etc before track time and then reset it for the street after the track . As you get faster , you will find that your brakes will probably not be good enough . I have street pads and track pads and change before going to the track and then after the event . Again , it`s more trouble , but keeps you from not being able to stop once you really start using the brakes hard . The ducting others mentioned is pretty much a must in my book .
You asked about my Avons and tire pressures . I start at 25 psi COLD on the front and 23 psi COLD on the rear . You will gain as much as 10 psi on a hot track after the tires come up to pressure . Just take it somewhat easy for a few laps until you get some heat in the tires .... you`ll be able to feel it .
Measure your tire pressure right after you come in and see what your buildup is . Take some white shoe polish and paint the inside and outside edges of you tires to see how much they are rolling over .... old school , but it works and is cheap . Tells you if you need more air or less .
Keep a detailed log book so you know what works and what doesn`t .... and I mean record everything ... air temps , clear , cloudy , everything .
Otherwise , have fun .... which you sound like you are already having .

David ... on the Miatas , X20 . At VIR , you don`t want to try to keep up with them in the uphills or any of the other tight parts , as they will eat you alive .

Bob: I know, I've run VIR once before,I learned my respect for the Miatas a loooooonnnnnnnngggggggggg time ago!!!!!!

All very good advise, I stole of bottle of the window paint from my daughter,use it on the sides of the tires,works like a charm...also the part about keeping accurate records, tire type/air pressures and all, you can not keep enough good info....it'll save you a lot of time and trouble down the road...
Also, if you drive your car a lot on the street, I'd suggest another set of wheels and maybe some Hossier R6 road race tires or a similar tire...
A decent street/track setting is 1/2 to 3/4 degree of negative camber and 2 degrees of positive caster....depending on your annual street mileage this is a good compromise.....
And no one has mentioned yet, but you need to keep a "racing kitty" of $$$$$, you'll soon find out just how much tires and brake pads cost and how long or lack thereof they last,not counting your gas and oil changes and all the upgrades you WILL be making as you progress......
But, damn,it sure is fun/fun/fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!

David

[sspano01]

Just catching back up on this thread!

And yes, one thing I have learned is that you cannot judge track performance by the cars that line up. At my last event with the cobra on 7/10 and 7/11, my new suspension ran great, but i must have given a point-by to a black volkwagon GTI at least 5 times!!! I'd point him by, come up on in hard in the next straight away, and then back off to make the turn safely. he would rarely hit the brakes in his GTI, it was impressive to watch and I learned a few things by watching him go by me.

a few of the this weeks modifications

1) all new plumbing for the oil lines and pressure switch controlled accumulator

accumulator by sspano01, on Flickr

2) Got my Avon!! 295/50 and 265/60. Had my kids paint the stencil on


avons by sspano01, on Flickr

Still working on seats, I have bought a few but they don't fit well. Guess I need to go with the 'cobra' 13 inch seat that others have used. I had two seats I bought for a honda S2000, they almost fit....i am going to fight with them a bit more.

Good tip on the alignment! Maybe I should just add a little negative camber, 1 degree? I dont want to kill the street performance. I am still trying to keep to the philosophy of racing-what-you-drive :P

[sspano01]

the guys at canton say they make a low-profile oil pan for the 460 fords that will be better for road racing. has baffles/etc. I took off my moroso pan because it was "too deep" and I kept hitting things with it on the road.

Going to goto the canton pan, ordering it from summit on monday.

so hopefully with the new canton pan and the accumulator, my oil pressure will be stable on the track. going to find out on 7/30 and 7/31

[sspano01]

@david! you say a racing $$$$ kitty and how much gas costs! hilarious!!
i have a very eco-friendly buddy who loves his hybrid.
i told him I spent $160 dollars for gas at the race track alone for two days, his eyes almost fell out of his head - too funny

[vatdevil]

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

There is also another saying with racers:

Good Auto X's generally make good road racers, and good road racers DO NOT generally make good Auto X's...................

I'd certainly recommend trying auto x before getting on road course, you'll get a chance to run your car as hard as you want but at lower speeds and get the "feel" of how it handles in sharp turns as well as hard braking all at lower/safer speeds.......and be humiliated by 16 year old kids in Honda Civics!!!!!!!

David

I'll second the auto cross suggestion. You will learn so much about how to drive smooth and that slower really is faster. Also get some skid pad time in. You will learn the feel of when the car is at its limit and how to catch it before snapping around.

[sspano01]

autocross is definately a learning experience, i have done that a few times this year and a couple last year. starting to goto it more regularly this year. been improving my time, but i am still about 5 seconds behind most of the experienced group. i'd like to find a skidpad!

[Tommy]

I concur with all the positive comments about autocrossing. In fact, I think every driver should do it. It's the safest way I know to discover the the car and driver's limits. And I think everyone should know what it feels like to exceed those limits before it happens in a real panic situation on a public street.

I did SCCA autocross for about two seasons before moving on to track day events. I found that six minutes of track time per day wasn't enough for me, and my car and I weren't particularly well suited to low speed events. .... On second thought, given how good Bruce Cambern's car is at autocross events, maybe its just that I wasn't very good at it.

[Bobcat]

sspano01 ... for the radials to really work well , you need negative camber . 1 degree , at least on my car wasn`t enough . I change camber to a negative 2 to 2 1/2 degrees on front and rear before going to the track and then change back for the street . Yes , it can be a pain to do the work , but it does make you faster and more stable on the track . For the street , in my opinion , 1 degree is the max you want as lots of negative camber will eat up the insides of the tires . Keep in mind that when you change the camber , you also change the toe in .... set the camber first and then the toe in .
In addition to the GTI and Miatas .... add the new Ford Focus ST . Ford brought a 2013 Focus ST to VIR Memorial weekend .... that things corners like it was on rails .... and has about 250 to 260 hp !
I`m an old dirt track racer ... being sideways on a wet track at 100 mph really teaches you about car feel ..... is a ball to do .
Congratulations , you`re going about things the right way and will enjoy your car so much more as you learn more about how it handles and your capabilities .

[DAVID GAGNARD]

On my 65 fastback street car,I have the front end set at 3/4 degree of negative camber and 2 degrees of positive caster, 1/8 inch of toe in....works great for the street and track......on my race car (65 Mustang couple) I use 2.5 degrees of negative camber and 2.5 degrees of positive caster and 1/16 toe in.....
I only put about 2500 miles a year on it on the street,so my tires dry rot long before they wear out.........
If your not putting more than say 5000 miles on the street a year, you can get away with a more agressive front end setting without wearing out your tires too soon......
I agree with bobocat,no more than 1 degree negative camber for all around use..........

Sometime back at our local track for a testing day there was a young guy that drove his 2/dr Corrolla Sport to the track and did a number of sessions......it was bone stock other than a nice set of tires and good brake pads,he was wicked fast for a street car........there was an older guy in a Z06 Vette there,kinda had an attitude.........anyway one session the Corrolla passes the Vette, shouldn't have,but he did......Vette driver was not to happy, next session the Corrolla not only passed the Vette, but within about 5 laps, lapped the Vette!!!!!!!!!!!!!! after the session the Vette drove in the pits, never stopped, just kept going out the gate heading home!!!!!!
Just as soon as you think your some hotshot road racer, someone will come along in a car that is heavier than yours and have 1/2 the HP and blow by you like your engine just killed!!!!Been there,done that....very humbling to say the least.....

David

[4pipes]

Ain't that the truth.

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

On my 65 fastback street car,I have the front end set at 3/4 degree of negative camber and 2 degrees of positive caster, 1/8 inch of toe in....works great for the street and track......on my race car (65 Mustang couple) I use 2.5 degrees of negative camber and 2.5 degrees of positive caster and 1/16 toe in.....
I only put about 2500 miles a year on it on the street,so my tires dry rot long before they wear out.........
If your not putting more than say 5000 miles on the street a year, you can get away with a more agressive front end setting without wearing out your tires too soon......
I agree with bobocat,no more than 1 degree negative camber for all around use..........

Sometime back at our local track for a testing day there was a young guy that drove his 2/dr Corrolla Sport to the track and did a number of sessions......it was bone stock other than a nice set of tires and good brake pads,he was wicked fast for a street car........there was an older guy in a Z06 Vette there,kinda had an attitude.........anyway one session the Corrolla passes the Vette, shouldn't have,but he did......Vette driver was not to happy, next session the Corrolla not only passed the Vette, but within about 5 laps, lapped the Vette!!!!!!!!!!!!!! after the session the Vette drove in the pits, never stopped, just kept going out the gate heading home!!!!!!
Just as soon as you think your some hotshot road racer, someone will come along in a car that is heavier than yours and have 1/2 the HP and blow by you like your engine just killed!!!!Been there,done that....very humbling to say the least.....

David

[sspano01]

too funny about the vette driver! i think you have to do this just for fun for the most part. i think as long as i feel like I am improving and learning, i am doing good. if i can pass a few cars every now and then - all the better....but there are some really good drivers out there!