Cobra setup for tracking

[sspano01]

Hi Folks,

I am starting to take my cobra to some track events and had a few questions for folks who actually track theirs.

I'll preface this by saying I am not trying to break any lap records and 115-120mph is plenty fast for me, i dont need to be one of those guys doing 150+ down the back straights/etc.

Updates I am making
1) 650 pound springs and QA1 in the front

2) 350 pound springs and QA1 in the back

3) bought scales to corner balance the car

4) looking at 15 inch avon's as opposed to the cooper cobra i am running now. i like to coopers, but may switch out to avon for better track performance? I'd like to have one set of tires - just for my own style. You know, tracking what you drive Was thinking about 17 inch, but i am not going to goto the 'limits' of everything, so maybe the 15's are still okay?

5) looking at full back sets for safety effects. already built a large driver/passenger roll bar

6) also thinking about hans/r3 device, just in case :O

A few details on my car
Its an Antique & Collectible replica running a 521 inch big block, fuel injection, 6 speed T56, and a true-trac 9" rear end. I've had it on the road for over a year now and have tracked it a few times already.

I think its well behaved on the street and goes upto 100+ in a very short time. I had it at an 1/8 drag strip and was getting about 92mph in about 8.2 seconds - with still more room to go, so I think I could easily hit 102 or so within about 8 seconds on the 1/8 mile.

What are some ideas, comments, thoughts, suggestions from guys who are actually tracking their cars? I'm not looking to be the fastest one out there, even if my car could be the fastest - I am not looking to push that risk level that far - until I build my dedicated daytona coupe that is

I talked to this other gentleman named Dan Reiter? Chepsk8 I think is handle is? He runs a factory five small block, dedicated track car.

Any insights/ideas/tips - I would appreciate it!

[vatdevil]

I would not track the car with the tires you now have. Race seat and 5 point harness is a must have also. Make sure your brakes are capable of repeated high speed stops, even if that means complete new system. Upgrade ball joints...tie rod ends ect.....install an electric pump rollover switch.

[RICK LAKE]

sspano01 Been tracking my car since 99. Been tech inspecting since 02 at events, here's some of the basic stuff I find not done to a car or driver
1 headlights need to be taped
2 loose front hub bearings, need to be greased and tighten the bearing until there is no play then back off to closest hole and install pin.
3 Helmets, most events will not allow motorcycle helmets, they are not the same as sa helmets. Some tracks will not allow open face helmets. I like them over full face because of eye sweeping on the track.
4 no loose stuff in trunk or glovebox.
5 tape over + side of battery cable and battery tight in location.
6 Start at the front of the car and check EVERY nut and bolt for tightness. I run aircraft nylocks and still check them. Check for any rearend play in back of car from mounts or bushings.
7 Wheel alignment of what you use on the street is not going to work well on the track. Higher camber and caster with toe maybe out instead of in. Street setup is ok but will not get the most out of the car for handling.
8 15" wheels verse 17" wheels. I started like alot of other people here with 15" wheels. To start with BFG tires are poor for track running . The only thing you will learn from them is the point of loosing traction and sliding the car. They are fun for burn outs. They will teach you how to learn better control of the car. One of the fastest cobra racers ran 15" wheels, Dick Smith. His driving style allowed the car do drift and slide through the turns. He used to pass guys with 18" wheels and tires at speed. He said "he drove by the seat of his pants". I believed him. I like my 17" wheels, but down side is no prewarning of when you are loosing traction, the car just whips around. You will run faster IMP with 17" over 15". We have had winners in street class running 15" AVON's with a 200 wear. These tires are one of the best in 15".
You will need to check rules on classes.
9 If you have an expensive paint job, tape or spray protective shield on both rear fender flairs to prevent damage and stone chips to car.
10 Motor, overfill the oil by 1.5 quarts when racing. These high "G" turns will kill the oil pressure and oil from returning to pan. A cheap way to help this problem is to add a 3 quart accusump to the system and have it set at 45 psi for track racing. Less if using it for a preluber. Long sweeping turns kill oil pressure. This applys to ALL cars and motors.
11 fuel setup in tank, I run over 1/2 tank of fuel to not have a lean out with the FI system, it's not a fuel cell, but has foam in it to stop splash. Make sure you know you have enough fuel in tank for 20 minute run. Nothing worse than almost getting hit from behind because of loosing fuel to motor.
12 Last on the info, 98% of the cobra guys at meets are helpful, nice, will lend tools and even parts. This is about having a GOOD time, meeting new people and even learning some things about how to drive your car better. Most events have pro drivers that will go out with you and run a couple of laps and make pointers for better driving. Ask questions.
KNOW YOUR LIMITS. We all get the juices flowing on the track. Stay clam and within your safe level of speed. Until you know the track well and get upto speed, start out slow and learn the corners of the track and cruise around in the beginner group. I do. Warms the car up, gives you time to check the feeling of it, and listen for the motor running. There is this little guy whos sits on your shoulder, LISTEN to him when he says something is wrong. 99 out of 100 he's right. Dust collectors, in the USA everyone want to be the winner, I have a wall full of $12.00 trophys. They are not worth anything if you get hurt, damage the car, or get killed. As I get older the yellow line down my back gets a little wider. This is because of reflexes get a little slower. This is a fact of life. I don't push my car as hard any more like I used too. It's alot more important to go home in 1 piece. This is a start, you will learn alot of info at the track. There is no harm to start in the back of the field and cruise a couple of laps and get off. Go back to the pit or trailer and relax. Cool off car, get a drink and let your own blood pressure go down. Next session do the same thing and you will be more relaxed and drive better. If you goto the Run&Gun I can promise you that by the end of the 1st day you will have been on the track a min of 4-5 times and be tired. This is a good time to stop. Do a safety check on the car, look at tires, tire pressures and jackup car and look on the under side for any damage or oil leaks. Nothing worst than having a car fire or sliding through your oil on a rear tire. Yes I am at fault for this at the last R&G in Hasteings. No damage to car or driver. This is what the emergency crews are there for. A valve cover gasket cracked and a small piece broken off. Oil hit the r/r tire and the exhaust light up the oil on the headers. Replaced 1 wire. Even the tech guy has problems. Good luck, have fun. Hope to see you at Hallet in Oct. Rick L. ps for more info, need first name, SS is not it.

[Jeff Frigo]

Rick:

Nice job.

[Tommy]

Rick's excellent advice didn't leave room for much. But here are a few more suggestions.

• Use high temp brake fluid and replace it before every event. ATE makes fluid in two colors so you can tell when the old fluid has been replaced with the new.
• Use arm restraints.
• Beware the urge to exceed your capability when either catching or being caught by another car. That's when I usually step over the line.
• Look at the track and decide which corners you can and cannot afford to misjudge. Sliding out of some corners just kicks up some dust and grass with no damage. Others can flip the car. Don't press the dangerous corners before you know your car and yourself very well.

[Bobcat]

Great comments from both Tommy and Rick .... however , I have several comments as I also track my ERA .... and used to run SCCA and dirt tracks . The ATE blue fluid permanently stains anything that is clear , i.e , the lines from my pressure bleeder , the reservoir on the car and the catch bottles . I now use the amber ATE and just look at the volume in the bottles .
X2 on the arm restraints in an open cockpit car ... mine are from Simpson and cost less than $40 .
Spring selection ... unless you have talked to someone who is/has run your setup and told you what he is running , you might want to spend some time doing motion ratio , suspension frequency and wheel rate calcs . Might save you some money on buying many different springs ... however , probably a good starting point might be just go about 30% higher on spring rates .
Other than safety equipment , the scales will be your best friend , as will be a really good alignment .
Listen to Rick and Tommy , they have been doing this a long time .
BTW , I have the Avon`s and to get the most out of a radial , I found that the camber settings have to be much greater than what you run on the street .... in the order of 2 to 2 1/2 degrees negative . Also , watch your brake pads ... if they say street and limited track , understand that they mean LIMITED track as they will overheat and then glaze over .

[sspano01]

Hello!!

Thanks for the great replies and tips! Let me respond a bit - and my first name is Steve, Steve Spano.

To Rick:

1 headlights need to be taped

I've seen a few people doing this, guess this is to prevent broken glass on the track? Sounds like an easy one - and of course makes you look like a real racer

2 loose front hub bearings, need to be greased and tighten the bearing until there is no play then back off to closest hole and install pin.

Just did this one, one had a little play before an autocross event. So I checked them all again.

3 Helmets, most events will not allow motorcycle helmets, they are not the same as sa helmets. Some tracks will not allow open face helmets. I like them over full face because of eye sweeping on the track.

Right! I have an SA2010 helment, so i guess i am good there

4 no loose stuff in trunk or glovebox.

Check on that one! I got some chuckles at the track on Monday. I took my 2011 BMW there as a comparison to feel how its suspension worked. My wife left a bunch of cookie cutters and other crap in the trunk that I had forgot about! Tech guy asked if I was baking enough for everyone.


5 tape over + side of battery cable and battery tight in location.

Good catch, I will do that!

6 Start at the front of the car and check EVERY nut and bolt for tightness. I run aircraft nylocks and still check them. Check for any rearend play in back of car from mounts or bushings.

Right, in my down time between runs, I have been checking around and before tracking it too. Lots of vibrations in these cars!

7 Wheel alignment of what you use on the street is not going to work well on the track. Higher camber and caster with toe maybe out instead of in. Street setup is ok but will not get the most out of the car for handling.

This is something I need to do. Now that I have changed my suspension, I want to get new tires over the next week and then see if I can get some negative camber like was suggested.

8 15" wheels verse 17" wheels. I started like alot of other people here with 15" wheels. To start with BFG tires are poor for track running . The only thing you will learn from them is the point of loosing traction and sliding the car. They are fun for burn outs. They will teach you how to learn better control of the car. One of the fastest cobra racers ran 15" wheels, Dick Smith. His driving style allowed the car do drift and slide through the turns. He used to pass guys with 18" wheels and tires at speed. He said "he drove by the seat of his pants". I believed him. I like my 17" wheels, but down side is no prewarning of when you are loosing traction, the car just whips around. You will run faster IMP with 17" over 15". We have had winners in street class running 15" AVON's with a 200 wear. These tires are one of the best in 15".
You will need to check rules on classes.

I am torn here on tires. I would like some 'warning' so perhaps the 15's. I am not going to try to push everything to their limits, so maybe i don't need the 17's yet. I really like the goodyear 'billboard' tires - some people say they are better than the avons? I am trying to research the friction vs. side loading of bias-ply vs. radial tires. Billboards are bias, avons are radials. I like the look of the 15's too, I figure if I am going somewhat slower, I should at least look good while doing it!

9 If you have an expensive paint job, tape or spray protective shield on both rear fender flairs to prevent damage and stone chips to car.

Already picking up chips! Oh well :-O

10 Motor, overfill the oil by 1.5 quarts when racing. These high "G" turns will kill the oil pressure and oil from returning to pan. A cheap way to help this problem is to add a 3 quart accusump to the system and have it set at 45 psi for track racing. Less if using it for a preluber. Long sweeping turns kill oil pressure. This applys to ALL cars and motors.

ACCUSUMP!! I was trying to remember what that thing was. I saw one on another car. Need to get one asap.

11 fuel setup in tank, I run over 1/2 tank of fuel to not have a lean out with the FI system, it's not a fuel cell, but has foam in it to stop splash. Make sure you know you have enough fuel in tank for 20 minute run. Nothing worse than almost getting hit from behind because of loosing fuel to motor.

Good call here. I was getting low on one run time and started to get the lean-out/sputter.

12 Last on the info, 98% of the cobra guys at meets are helpful, nice, will lend tools and even parts. This is about having a GOOD time, meeting new people and even learning some things about how to drive your car better. Most events have pro drivers that will go out with you and run a couple of laps and make pointers for better driving. Ask questions.

Everyone at the track has seemed nice so far, even if I am slowing them up and they have to wait for the straights to pass me :P


On tommy's comments

Use high temp brake fluid and replace it before every event. ATE makes fluid in two colors so you can tell when the old fluid has been replaced with the new.

Didn't know there was a colored fluid. I will flush are replace with that shortly. I am running 4-piston wilwoods on all four wheels with a street/track pad. They seem to be working well, but I am not doing alot of hard braking yet.

Use arm restraints.

Yep! Already have them. Needed them for a drag race I went to.

Beware the urge to exceed your capability when either catching or being caught by another car. That's when I usually step over the line.

Look at the track and decide which corners you can and cannot afford to misjudge. Sliding out of some corners just kicks up some dust and grass with no damage. Others can flip the car. Don't press the dangerous corners before you know your car and yourself very well

Now that is the trick right There are guys running faster than me, and that is just fine. I don't want to be first, but I dont want to be dead last either. I figure there must be a happy medium in there that limits my risk and still gets me a fun time.


Mr Bobcat:

Spring selection ... unless you have talked to someone who is/has run your setup and told you what he is running , you might want to spend some time doing motion ratio , suspension frequency and wheel rate calcs . Might save you some money on buying many different springs ... however , probably a good starting point might be just go about 30% higher on spring rates .

I have found a few websites for other race prepped cobra that described what they were running. I also bought this suspension book and came across a few detailed excel spreadsheets for suspension setup. I took a few days - just this week - and measured the entire suspenion, calculating motion ratios, measuring un-sprung parts, center of gravity, roll centers/etc. I just finished putting my new suspension, based on my calculations, on the car today. I also bought a longacre scale kit and balanced the entire car to within 50.7% cross-weight.

Took it for a drive on my 'street test track' and it is like a completely different car now! Seems almost attached to the road and when I turn the wheel, no body roll yet. Just seems to go exactly where I point it - very excited to try it on the track.


Other than safety equipment , the scales will be your best friend , as will be a really good alignment .
Listen to Rick and Tommy , they have been doing this a long time .
BTW , I have the Avon`s and to get the most out of a radial , I found that the camber settings have to be much greater than what you run on the street .... in the order of 2 to 2 1/2 degrees negative . Also , watch your brake pads ... if they say street and limited track , understand that they mean LIMITED track as they will overheat and then glaze over .

And you are running the Avons! So that is good, and 2 to 2.5 negative camber. How does that do on the street and/or straight line driving? Still okay?


Overall: Sounds like I am on the right track!
I need to get better tires and some more safety gear.
And make sure that my 'improvements' do NOT make me overreach my skill level - that is probably the most tricky part here.

And Rick--- What is hallet in october?! And how do I get to attend

[sspano01]

hallet - jennings oklahoma?
that is funny, my wife and kids were talking about doing a horse show in tulsa! That's a 21 hour drive from New York - better get an enclosed trailer. That would be one tough ride in the cobra :0

[Rick Parker]

Stated by several and probably most important....know your limits and don't drive over your head. Adrenaline is powerful stuff. You're not in a race its called "Open Track" and it is just that. An opportunity to drive the car at an speed that's way above average, but do it so you can come back another time. Don't hurt yourself or someone else. If you make a mistake at speed in one of these cars, you're going to get hurt.

[sspano01]

definately most important, i agree! i'm just looking for fun and a no-drama day is the best fun.

[sspano01]

one more day under my belt!
new suspension setup is working much much better!
i set it up, cross-balanced the car, and its not swimming through the turns!

still have lots to work on, but i got my all time best of 2:48 lap at watkins. almost a respectable slow time

watkins 070912 2 48 lap - YouTube

[lovehamr]

After watching that Steve, I think the new tires are going to blow you away. No more tire squealing drama and you be able to actually use the throttle on that beast!

[sspano01]

tires are next! the new suspension setup is so much better! you should have ridden with me when it was squealing tires and swimming around in the turns! it was hard for me to tell what it wanted to do.

at least now that the car is much more rigid, i can deal with the tire squeal a bit.

so 17 inch or 15 inch - that's my question now.

15 in avons, about $2k and use my current rims
17 inch hoosier/etc plus new rims, about $3200?

decisions - but i am still improving my time and gaining confidence, so that is all in the right direction!

[RICK LAKE]

sspano01 Nice run Steve. What where your tire pressures? As for the 15 or 17" wheels, you are new to this and the car, Stay with the 15" until it doesn't scare you any more. Your driving will get smoother and faster in time. The most important thing is your temps and pressures. The camera is too high. Any time you have tire noise you are pulling 1/2 a "G" or more and we need to watch this. Low oil pressure kill more motors and anything else.
You need a extra person to start with and to chart some things like weather conditions, tire pressures, and most important tire temps. Tire temps will tell you if the car is happy with the alignment and setup. You are looking for a temp from the inside to the out side of the same. I don't have enough time to explain all this to you a this point. R&G is in Tulsa, a long 2 day drive. I doubt it is going to fit into my free time this year.
Take at easy wildman. Work on hitting the brake zones and running the curves. The most fun is floating the car through a turn from right to left and back. There is one thing we left out, if you are going to get the bug with this, get a rollcage built for the car that is removable. It may save you at 100 mph, at 140 phm your in god's hands Rick L. Ps adjust camera to see dash for readings on oil pressure gauage. You also might want to get a low oil pressure light install where you can see it without changing your sight line. This will help save a motor. I broke a rocker shaft and ran around the track with 7 cylinders and about 25-30 psi of oil at speed, didn't feel anything with the car. Accusump saved motor from damage with giving it 30 psi until tank emptied. Have fun up your tire pressures in the rear a couple of pounds. Rick

[Dominik]

A few tracks require safety-wiring some bolts. Typically those where you may lose oil.
I wouldn't stop there. After a few races you find out what else may come off.

A good seat is worth a million. Did you think about a fire extinguisher system?

And do you have a fuel pressure gage?

[sspano01]

Hi

I have two new seats on order and am going to order the 15-inch avons. I think they will be superior to what I have and I should get a good margin and alot of fun with them.

I need to get an accusump before i do another track event. Even with extra oil, i can see some very large pressure drops, down below 10psi on some turns. I don't want to burn up the engine!

the engine is EFI, so i dont have a pressure gauge on it, but could add one.

My time was better at watkins, 2:45 - almost a good 'slow' time.
The suspension changes I made have worked very well. Now I only have tire squeal and a squishy seat. Instead of body roll, tire squeal, and a squishy seat.

Once I quiet up the tires and get a better seat, that should help me feel better on the track!

[sspano01]

i was running 35psi in the back and 30psi in the front for my tires. not sure if that is good or bad, and i didnt want to play with too many variables yet.

i saw some other thread that people were running 25 back and 20 front on the avons?

[SwiftDB4]

10 psi oil pressure is way too risky. Get the 3 qt. accusump if you can fit it in. Cheap insurance compared to a blown engine. Stickier tires mean even more risk of oil starvation. Is the oil getting too hot? If so you need a cooler or bigger one. Run a little thicker oil say 10-40 or 15-50 for track use. As you go faster stock brakes/pads will be totally inadequate. Harder compound pads will help prevent fade and boiling the fluid.
I'd go for the Avons. That will be the biggest performance enhancement you'll see.

[sspano01]

the accusump will have to fit somewhere, can't be running 10psi like that on many more track days for sure. My oil temperature sensor is not working, it never worked for some odd reason. I need to get that working as well. Coolant never gets about 185 though, so I dont think its getting too hot. When I start coming out of the turn, my pressure climbs back up near 40psi, so that is pretty good.

I am going need new pads soon, my willwood pads are holding up nice, but I am just starting to try to brake harder. Getting lots of dust now.

So more mods to do and then I am back at watkins on July 30 and 31 to test it out.
I am excited about the tires, ordering them today!!

[DAVID GAGNARD]

You are going in the right direction with all your upgrades, not a lot to add.....don't scrimp on safety items and your driving gear....before each track day put your car on jackstands and go over every nut and bolt you can get to,check tie rods and suspension components for wear/play,check all your fluids and while under the car look for any leaks of anything.......

Drive to YOUR comfortable limits and safety level, as you get more seat time, you'll get faster and smoother......Smooth IS fast....get someone (maybe Dan) to ride along with you and observe and they can give you tips about what your doing right and wrong,you'll be suprised at what changing up your line a little here and there can do in some corners........

Ask Dan (yes, I know him) about turn 9 and cold tires!!!!!!!

Get on the track and have fun/fun/fun..........

David