How to bleed Tilton balance bar brakes - Page 2

Roscoe · #21 (**permalink**) 07-10-2002, 06:44 AM

Olaf,
First impression is that you did not bleed the mc. You must eliminate the possibility first before moving on. Obviously the new calipers are not on upside down with the bleeders low. I know, I know, but this has happened in the past so I must mention it.
Roscoe

Mike Braddock · #22 (**permalink**) 07-10-2002, 11:40 AM

Olaf,

I think you need to properly bench bleed the MC, as Roscoe said. Did you have this same problem with the 3/4" MC before you swapped in the 7/8"? How do the front brakes work? Have you removed the rear calipers and checked around the seals to see if they are leaking and you just can't see it? Note that you do not have to remove the MC(s) to bench bleed them, you only need to run a piece of tubing from the output port to the MC's reservoir and stroke the piston several times to remove all the air. Can you do this easily? If so, try and it and let us know what happens. Good luck.

Mike

Mike

olaf herrick · #23 (**permalink**) 08-06-2002, 07:56 PM

I just wanted to share this great joy of mine !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The breaks are fixed (praise the Lord). It took removing my calipers , installing a spacer between the pads and suspending the calipers with the bleederfacing up , below the level of the lines. I left the calipers in that position for a couple days and manuel pump bled them several times today. The result is a working set of 4 wheel disk breaks. Thanks for all the advice guys. Olaf

Ibr8k4vetts · #24 (**permalink**) 08-06-2002, 09:02 PM

I'm just starting to install my brakes and I have no info on if the 7/8 master go's to the front or the rears. oh the other master is a 3/4.

Thanks Mike

Roscoe · #25 (**permalink**) 08-07-2002, 07:06 AM

Mike,
The larger one usually goes in the rear.
Roscoe

Ibr8k4vetts · #26 (**permalink**) 08-07-2002, 11:52 AM

thanks Roscoe.
Mike

rbray · #27 (**permalink**) 04-17-2003, 07:02 AM

Hi Guys,
I am starting the bleeding process. I have read the suggestions, but I will still have some questions, so thanks in advance for your help.
Club Cobra is a god send. There is no way I could have gotten this far without all the great advice I have gotten from you guys.

chopper · #28 (**permalink**) 04-18-2003, 08:51 AM

Alternative brake bleeder tool:

http://store.yahoo.com/azmotorsports/hydbrakbleed.html

Works on the same principle as the bleeder valves shown earlier, but has a spring-loaded ball which requires that you build up a little pressure before opening. This helps purge the air bubbles faster. The spring also closes the check ball valve quicker once pressure is released, to avoid any air being sucked back into the system. I bought one of these little jobbers and it works well. Be aware that if you get one of these, you may have to remove the bleeder valve from the brake cylinder and seal the threads with some teflon tape to prevent air being sucked back into the cylinder on the up stroke of the pedal.

As to bleeding the Tiltons, Mr. Putnam's able assistant Doug advised me to jack the FRONT of the car up as high as possible, and SLOWLY pump the pedal full down and back up about 20 times. Take about 30 seconds from full up to full down on each stroke. This will help clear the air out of the master cylinder(s) by allowing it to exit the cylinder and migrate back up into the reservoir. I understand that, if you have Tiltons of more than a couple years age, the fluid inlet from the reservoir is through a very small inlet port. The small size of the inlet port makes it difficult to purge the air out of the Tilton cylinder. The newer cylinders (less than a couple of years, I understand) have slightly larger inlet ports and will purge air quicker.

rbray · #29 (**permalink**) 04-19-2003, 01:28 PM

Wow this is frustraing!!!!!
Here is what I have tried so far:

Bleed a front and rear wheel by having a friend slowly pumping the pedal. It didn't work at all the first time so we tried it again.
The results were better but not good enough.
We did the same procedure again, the results were better but got worse after a short drive.

Today I jacked up the front end of the car and did a gravity bleed on the fronts. Small bubbles came out of the drivers side for about 45 minutes. No bubbles came out of the passengers side.
I was careful not to let the resovior run dry.
I really thought I had the problem solved, but when I tested the car in the driveway the results were worse than ever.

Any help would be appreciated. It's a beautiful day and I would really like to drive my car.

Thanks for your help

Sal Gerace · #30 (**permalink**) 04-19-2003, 03:17 PM

I had a lot of trouble to say the least trying to bleed the hydraulic clutch on my pickup truck. Reason being because the master cylinder is mouted on an angle which causes the air to stay "up" in the line you are trying to bleed. The clutch manufactorer recomended this bleeder tool. It is called a Phoneix injector. Made by Phoenix you can find it here. http://search.cartserver.com/search/...oenix&go=GO%21 .It is one of the best tools I ever purchased and can't wait to bleed something else. Plastic model around $100.00. Top quality around $197.00 the Max Pro 205. This is the one I got. Check it out.

Cobra20646 · #31 (**permalink**) 04-20-2003, 06:16 AM

rbray,

Roger, from the way you described your bleeding process, I don't think you are doing it properly.

Have friend pump pedal rapidly for five or six strokes and hold pressure on final push.

You then immediately loosen bleed screw. Friends pedal should go to floor while air/fluid squirt out, but don't let friend let up his pressure on pedal until you tighten bleed screw.

Repeat above until you don't see any more air.

You should start with the longest brake line first, and work your way back to the shortest line.

Gravity feed is nice to begin the bleed process, but won't replace the pressure method.

I've never tried the tool that Sal mentioned, but it seems to have merit. I do like the vacuum tools, but I always finish the job by doing what I described above. Never had a car that failed bleeding that way.

- Jim -

Sal Gerace · #32 (**permalink**) 04-20-2003, 04:36 PM

The Phonix Injector that I mentioned in my previous post can also inject the brake fluid from the bleeder to the master cylinder and push the air bubbles up through the line and out. It also explaines a few tecniques in the manual that I have not had to try to bleed a system. They also sound very good. It is not just a vacuum system but also an injector as the name implies. Mechanic grade set.

rbray · #33 (**permalink**) 04-21-2003, 01:52 PM

Thank you for all of your advice. We are going to try again tomorrow night.
I'll keep you posted

rbray · #34 (**permalink**) 02-23-2004, 12:37 PM

Well I'm still having problems so I'm bring this one back to the top.

I have followed the suggestions in this thread and was making progress until yesterday.

My friend came over with his new vacum bleeder and we encouraged as we got a lot of air out of booth of the front calipers.

However, after we finished the procedure we noticed that the brake pedal dropped almost all the way to the floor.

I have informed the guys at E-M and they are not sure what is going on.

I wonder if I could have damaged the master cylinder during the process.
If anyone has any ideas I would be grateful.

Roger

Roscoe · #35 (**permalink**) 02-23-2004, 01:03 PM

Have you thought of contacting Tilton Racing?

I don't know how you bled the brakes or if you bench bled the masters but the way I understand it you have to bleed one side, front and back, and then the other side.

805 688 2353

Roscoe

olaf herrick · #36 (**permalink**) 02-23-2004, 09:26 PM

Roger , dont give up. I work on cars quite a bit and have bled dozens of systems. My Tilton setup was the most frustrating brakes setup I have ever bled. I did elevate the car on the pass side first then the drivers side and gravity bled the brakes. I bet I bled out a gallon of fluid or more but I finally got it fixed. they work great now. Good luck. Olaf

rdorman · #37 (**permalink**) 02-24-2004, 07:05 AM

Rbay

A couple of things come to mind. First you said that the pedal dropped almost all the way to the floor. Are you talking about with out even pushing in on it? In other words you just bled the brakes and then looked at the pedal and it was way low? If so it sounds as though the fill port in the master cylinder was not exposed when you began the bleeding process or became covered during the process. If the pistons have not fully returned in the master cylinders you can bleed until the cows come home and it will not help. Check on this.

No need to get fancy. Raise one side of the car and bleed both front and rear at the same time. Again make sure the bleeder is at the highest point of the caliper and if possible the entire system when you bleed the brakes. Remove the caliper if you have to do this (don't forget to put something in the caliper to keep the pistons from blowing out if you do this!). It takes a lot of fluid to get a new system free of air. Do not have some one hold the pedal with a bunch of pressure and then crack the bleeders. Light pressure is all that is required and is preferred. Actually, I bleed them all by myself with no problem at all. I use a hose attached to the bleeder and placed in a jar with some clean fluid (you can buy the set up cheap at any autoparts store). I keep the fluid in the jar above the bleeder to help keep the bleeder immersed in fluid otherwise the jar end tend to siphon all the fluid out of the hose (hose not tight enough) an leave the top of the bleeder in air which it will suck back in when releasing the pedal. Do not open the bleeder to far. If you open it to far you can suck air around the threads. You only need to open it just enough that fluid will come out. If fluid is coming out around the thread you have gone to far. Some folks put heavy grease on the bleeder threads just to help with this. Although I don't know how well advised grease in the hydraulic system is! When pumping the pedal, use your hand and go very, very slowly. Particuarlly when releasing the pedal and again, be sure that the master cylinder pistons fully return. I have never found it necessary to do the 'push on the pedal, open the bleeders, close them once the pedal hits the bottom and then release the pedal' method. Although that is ideal. But then you have a three person bleed job! But I will admit, I have done it! With three guys it is a quicker more efficient procedure. I have been bleeding balance bar systems since the early 80's.

If there are any 'peaks and valleys' in you plumbing these are all spots where bubbles will want to hide. Tapping on the lines, calipers and master cylinders to help dislodge the bubbles can be helpful.

Happy bleeding!

Rick

rbray · #38 (**permalink**) 02-24-2004, 07:38 AM

Thanks to all that have replied.

Rick, the answer to your question is yes, the pedal dropped by itself during the vacum bleeding proceedure. We have not been able to get it to return to its original position yet.
I contacted Tilton tech support and they said they did not know of any reason vacum bleeding could have caused this.
My friend an I will try again on Wednesday night using your suggestions.
Thanks again for your help, I really appreciate it,
Roger

Roscoe · #39 (**permalink**) 02-24-2004, 07:42 AM

Roger,
By the way, did you bench bleed the masters before installation?
Roscoe

rdorman · #40 (**permalink**) 02-24-2004, 08:12 AM

Roscoe once again brought up a good point. On a new system, master cylinder R&R you should 'bench' bleed the master cylinder. I just by a pre-made length of brake line, cut it in half and curl it around so that it empties at the bottom of the reservoir. You can do this on the bench in a vise but I generally mount it to the car and do it that way. This could point out an area that certainly seems to have trouble since you can not get the peddle to return. The ports could be clogged or there could be no return spring in the master cylinder, etc, etc. If the master cylinder won't bench bleed, it sure as heck is not going to work on the system!
Rick