351 C good bad ???

[jamesson]

Jinx,

I need you buddy,
just got a 351C, very interested in your set up.
I want to clean up my engine and love the look of the webers.
So, I need to look at some pics, ummmm copy some ideas.

I will continue to harrass you until I see those pics...lol
Cheers
Jim

[Jinx]

jamesson as soon as I get my rims should be tomorrow... as soon as I get my side pipes should be by thie weekend Ill send pics I hope thanxs ,,,,,,..jinx kant waitt ...10/4...shoot...wholy cow....just got my new blue streaks ,,sh!!t cant wait..looking good

[kountzecobra]

Really do like my 351C. Especially with 2-4v Holleys on top.

[aumoore]

IMHO the cleveland is one of Fords best all around performance motors. I have owned three clevelands(1972 HO, and 1971 Boss 351 and a 1971 2v cleveland) all the motors were in either a 1970 Mustang or a 1971 Mach 1. To this day I still do not know why the cleveland gets a bad rap on torque? The mustangs I had were no lightweights but the Cleveland would move them effortlessly. I guess in a heavy torino or a LTD with crappy gearing there might be some problem but after 3000rpm I doubt a windsor will keep up unless they have AFR's or Trick Flows(shich are kind of a cleveland copy). In a light weight cobra a cleveland should be about perfect. Not too much torque down low so the car will launch and almost unlimited top end(limited to what the valves will take)

I agree that Clevelands love high compression. The low compression 266 HP 1972 motor was no match for the 11.3:1 Boss 351 motor which was onlyrated at 330 HP. I have read that a stock Boss 351 put out over 400HP?

[Jinx]

wheres pace florida???

[JOHNNYCOBRA]

I've combined the best of the cleavland 2bbl head with a windsor block(cleavor) to make a fairly stout engine.

The 2bbl heads were fitted with stainless 2.10 Intake and 1.71 Exhuast. 1.73 ratio roller rockers and 7/16 studs. Heavier springs and the water jackets reworked for the windsor configuration.

With about 10.7 compression and hypereutectic pistons

Cam has .548 Intake and .560 Exhaust lift and 290 Duration

2.00 inch primaries

The combination should work OK, but we'll see I'll be firing it up in about 30 days.

[Andy Dunn]

You did not screw up at all. An engine is an engine and a 351 is an great choice. The only problem with a Cleveland, as some have already stated, is the lack of aftermarket parts. But it is no more of a challenge than finding parts for a 427 side oiler. You should have a great mill when you are done.

There are more parts showing up every day for this engine. Here are some examples

396c Stroker Kit
http://www.flatlanderracing.com/stroker351c396.html

408c Stroker Kits
http://www.flatlanderracing.com/stroker351c408.html

Intake Manifolds
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/man_ford_351c.html
Performer RPM
Torqure
Victor Yates
Victor Y

Heads
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/headford.html
http://www.jason.fletcher.net/tech/f.../cleveland.htm
Victor (race)
Victor Chapman (race)
Cleveland
Aussie Cleveland

Cams
Crane Power Max Hydraulics
http://www.cranecams.com/master/apps/ford37.htm
Crane Power Max Solid Roller
http://www.cranecams.com/master/apps/ford43.htm
Crane Power Max Mechnical Lifter
http://www.cranecams.com/master/apps/ford42.htm


as long as you components are reasonably matched, you will have a great engine.


Andy

[jamesson]

Alright Jinx,

I have patiently waited for several weeks now.
WHERE ARE THE PICS????

I have mine up so how about you enlighten us with some pics of those webers!

Cheers
Jim

[B. SMITH]

HAD A 351C IN A UNIQUE.

2800 STALL C-6 AUTO, 3.73 GEAR WITH THE 2V HEADS. DON'T REMEMBER ALL THE ENGINE DETAILS BUT BALANCED AND BLUEPRINTED, ROLLER 1.7 ROCKERS, ETC. ABOUT $12,000. IN THE ENGINE-DRIVETRAIN BUILD.

END RESULT, 475 BENCH HP, 389 RWHP, 394 FPT. COULD REV 7000 EASILY AND NOTHING SOUNDS AS GOOD AS A CLEVELAND.
LOOKS BETTER THAN THE SMALL BLOCK THAT I HAVE NOW.

YOU WILL LOVE IT. LET ME KNOW.

B. SMITH

[bittentoo]

I've run clevelands for 25 years now and IMO it is the best small block for making real go fast horsepower for less money than any other engine around. The 1970 & 1971 closed chamber 4v engines came with 10.5 compression, the big valves, strong rods and even the cast iron intake flowed good. The only thing you needed to do to them was change cams and valve springs. The stock cam was very conservative. A high lift .500"+ and narrow split duration 265 intake, 275 exhaust cam, and headers is all that is needed for a 375-400 hp street engine. What you have to be careful of is too much cam duration. This will kill any bottom end power you had and the engine won't start to pull until 3000+ rpm's. If you are running the 72-73 open chambered low compression motor, this problem is magnified. (been there-done that)
OK, now I'm new to this forum though I've been visiting it for a good while and think that it is great, there are some misnomers about clevelands that I would like to address:

1. The oiling problems that you have heard about on this and other forums is not accurate. For a street motor the oiling system is fine. If you are building a race motor (high substained rpm) then oiling mods are required, but would be on any other motor also.

2. 351c's do have some bottom end torque. As stated earlier, as long as you don't over cam them they do just fine.

3. For a street motor, you have to run 2v heads. BULL! Refer to #2.

4. The 351c bottom end is plenty strong enough for a street motor. As long as you limit your rpm's 6500 with new rod bolts they do just fine. How many other "stock" motors are you winding this far? Because the 4v heads can make so much hp, you will reach the point where you have overcome the blocks capabilities and this is why they have a bad reputation.

OK, now for some observations and opinions that I have formed from the various forums that I read concerning clevelands. Let it be said ahead of time that I might step on some toes and make some generalizations that are not accurate, but here goes:

The statements that; 2v heads are better than 4v heads for the street, aussie heads are better than 4v heads, clevelands have oiling problems, clevelands have weak blocks, you can build a 351 windsor cheeper than a cleveland are made by the younger generation forum members that are responding to 351c questions with information that they have read but not experienced themselves. They are a product of the windsor marketing tools. This is the engine that they are familiar with due to the popularity of the fox bodied mustang.

And when you get positive replys concerning 4v clevelands, it is from the older gear heads that where around in the muscle car era or, engine builders that are currently building clevelands.

So now that I have painted a bulls eye on my butt, let the arrows fly! I hope that I don't bleed too much!

I feel better now.....

BTW, does anyone know when the big Austin meet is?

[kountzecobra]

Kelly, I will have to agree with you on all points. Go to Texas Cobra Club forum and read posts about Feb. Austin meet . My Cleveland powered Cobra will be there for sure.

[TheShadow]

My opinion of the Cleveland is based on "real" not "read" experience. I had 70, 71, 72 Mustangs with 351 Clevelands and 429 big block. The 351's after adding Cam kits, Rod bolts, Forged pistons, Headers, would out run the 71 429 SCJ in the 1/4 mile. The 72 had 10.0 compression pistons against the 429's 11.0

One thing that was a problem for me was the factory distributer
and point bounce. Switch to a earlly after market electronic unit. I heard the Nascar crowd was using the insides out of the aftermarket distributers and adapting them to the Ford unit. I never confirmed this.

I feel the argument about being weak below 3000 is just not an issue given the weight of most Cobras. When running it hard, who's below 3000 rpm anyway.

Check with Sothern Automotive, they will tell you the best small block to ever leave Detroit is the Cleveland. Check out their experience with stroking the Cleveland and what effect it has on the 4v heads. (Outstanding it is!!!!!)

Ed

[Jack21]

I wouldn't assume you're painting a bulls eye on your butt for sharing first hand experience on this forum. First, we're predominantly an "over 40" crowd anyway. Second, experience is what counts around here, even if it goes against contemporary thinking.

There will always likely be a debate of some kind concerning the relative merits of the Ford 351 Windsor, and 351 Cleveland.

The Windsor never had any performance orientation from Ford. It was a grocery getter, truck motor, boat motor. Had it not been for aftermarket sources; the lowly Windsor would still only enjoy boat anchor status.

The Cleveland was a high performance engine from the get go. It was targeted at whomping Chevy and Chrysler small blocks on the street, strip, and track, with big block canted valves, ports you could stick your arm into, and 7000 RPM all day long. And then it died. That was '73. And nothing since. Chevy small block racers would give their first born male child for a set of factory (or aftermarket) canted valve, big block style heads. It ain't happened.

Thank you for your input, and sheding some light on the controversy.

[fordracer]

Clevelands are some bad to the bone motors. I had a '69 Mach 1 with a transplanted Cleveland. Stock except for cam,intake,and headers. It ran a 12.05 @ 115.62 mph. That was with 4.30 gears and a 7000 rpm shift. There are all kinds of Cleveland hot rod parts. Look to Austrailia for aluminum heads, Funnel Web intake, port stuffers,etc... Those people that say a Cleveland is junk don't know diddly

[Dsprint2000]

that I would have pulled the 400 from my Dad's 72 Torino wagon when it totalled. Heck, he wishes he would have, sure do miss that motor.....

David

[RACER X #99]

Jack 21
The Chevy guys do have those sb Canted heads they are called SB2 heads they are the Nascar approved head for the GM guys.

I am a Ford guy all the way but anybody who follows any type of racing knows that the sb Chevy has been the dominant engine in racing for about 40 years.

The canted valve Cleveland is an OK high RPM motor but now the Windsor has pushed the Cleveland to the back burner.
Cleveland/Yates heads on a SVO Windsor block is the best combo for an all out sb Ford.

Ford keeps trying to get it right but Chevy did it right the first time in 1955

Cranky

[Jamo]

I've had a variety of motors in my cars over the years--domestic and import. Several Chevy small blocks, including LT1s in a 92 Vette and a 96 Impala--excellent motors. The 4.2, 5 valves per cylinder V8 in my Audi is amazing. The Yamaha-built 6cyl. SHO was a work of art.

But nothing, so far, has been better than the 4v Cleveland I had in my Butler (now Freddie Douglass'). 20 year old motor, smooth as silk, wonderful sounds, not one stinking problem during my tenure, enough torque for autocrossing, 7000rpms if you really think you need it, unique appearance, and enough horses to take out new Vettes (which Freddie proved once again on his first drive down the California coast).

I will miss her, and I swear now before you all that if that somb!tch I'm having built doesn't do it's job, I'll swap in a Cleveland in a heartbeat.

[aumoore]

Here is a good website

http://members.tripod.com/lyc_42/fordv8/cleve/cleve.htm

check out the webbers

[rldunn7]

WE have a 351C in our Cobra and have been very pleased with the track and street performance. The intake port plates help increase the intake air speed and the exhaust port plates help get the S*&^ out of he motor after the burn. We are at 9.9 to 1 and run 93 octane pump gas on the street. Ultradyne provided the bump stick which make this girl sound very bad.... Also go with the windage tray and coat all the lifter valley with glyptol. keeps your oil from turning black after five minutes of running. We have a ball with the cleveland ....good reliable TORQUE and horsepower...I'm spoiled!

[Steve R]

Jinx,
I have a 351w out of a station wagon it runs great. I'll trade it with you even- steven if you throw in the webbers
I'll be looking for your e-mail.
"Even Steven"