Cleveland and dyno experts
 

Want to get a bit more power out of my Cleveland. It DVSFII I had the car on the chassis dyno. The engine is a 40 over, balanced and blueprinted, keith black pistons about 9.3 to 1, performer 4V intake, arizona exhaust pipes, cam specs
CAMSHAFT SPECS (From label on cam box)
Effective @ .050 Lift
VALVE Intake Exhuast Intake Exhuast
Lift (net) .510 .536 --- ---
Duration* 292 302 214 224
Opens 34 83 0
BTC 49
BBC
Closes 78 39 34
ABC -5
ATC
Overlap 73 Timing is net

On the dyno the car was running very lean. I beleive that is was because the intake manifold gaskets where sucking air and oil from the lifter valley. It was very obvious when I changed the gaskets. The car made 323HP and 354 torque to the rear wheels through a toploader and jag rear. Torque curve was very broad and peaked at about 3500.

HP peakes at about 5300 where it remained the same until 6100. By 6500it was down almost 50HP. This is where I think I can get more. I think the car is under carburated with a 600CFM vacuum secondary holley. Looking for suggestions and experience on a larger carb for this package. Also, I was wondering how much HP I would actually see by going to roller rockers.

Suggestions?

Thanks
Rick

There is a Ford 335 Cleveland Series Engine Forum, if you are
not already aware of, and I believe the address is:
www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/19419. They seem to be
strong believers in the Australian 2v heads for the street. I,
myself built a 400m with 4v quenced heads with spacer plates
and an Edelbrock torquer and 750 Holley combo. Haven't
been on the street in my Midstates yet as it is not quite finished.
Don't forget the Ford swap meet in Columbus on the 30th and
1st coming up. Lots of Cleveland experience and Australian
parts available.

LINK TROUBLE
 

The link didn't work! I have read a lot about the Aussie heads. New heads are not in my future. Now a 427 Cleveland stroker when it comes rebuild time! That will help use up the heads. Block is already 40 over so this its last trip around the.... block!? Plus when every asks 'does that have a 427 in it', I can answer to the affirmative!

If you are going to build a 427 Cleveland, you are going to have to use an aftermarket block or a 400 block because cleveland block doesn't have enough deck height. 393 is the max they build clevelands. I believe I would recommend an Edelbrock Torker and a 650 Holley DP. But try the 600 you have first on the Torker- it might surprise you. Performer is restrictive. Compression ratio is also a little low for 4v heads also. These Clevelands like compression! Your dyno numbers are really not too bad, I just think intake is limiting HP at higher rpm.

Try www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/119419

Try talking with the pantera crowd, they run that motor.

>Want to get a bit more power out of my Cleveland. At DVSFII, I had
>the car on the chassis dyno. The engine is a 40 over, balanced and
>blueprinted, keith black pistons about 9.3 to 1, performer 4V intake,
>arizona exhaust pipes,

Your cam specs are 214/224 @ 0.050" lift, 0.510"/0.536" lift, 112 LSA.
That's a fairly mild cam, equivalent in specs to the old Ford Motorsport
351C hydraulic flat tappet grind, though several others make a similar
cam. It's best suited to give a wide torque band with open chamber 4V
heads.

>On the dyno the car was running very lean. I believe that is was because
>the intake manifold gaskets where sucking air and oil from the lifter
>valley. It was very obvious when I changed the gaskets.

The rubber intake manifold gasket end seals can be also be troublesome,
especially if the heads and/or intake have been milled. Many builders
toss the rubber seals and just lay down a bead of RTV. I don't like
this as I've seen too many engines with RTV bits clogging up pushrod
holes and oil pick ups. I prefer to buy or make my own from cork. I
peen the block rails with a punch so the gasket won't squeeze out while
it's being torqued down. This also works well on valve cover and oil pan
gaskets. Use Permatex 300 or a contact cement to hold the gaskets in
place. Don't use RTV, except in the corners of the end rails and even
there I prefer using the red-brown Permatex. Retain the turkey pan
unless the carb heat ports are blocked. The pan protects the oil from
splashing on the hot exhaust crossover port.

>The car made 323HP and 354 torque to the rear wheels through a toploader
>and jag rear. Torque curve was very broad and peaked at about 3500.

About what you'd expect for the cam and intake you have.

>HP peakes at about 5300 where it remained the same until 6100. By 6500
>it was down almost 50HP. This is where I think I can get more. I think
>the car is under carburated with a 600CFM vacuum secondary Holley.
>Looking for suggestions and experience on a larger carb for this package.

The peak is about where I'd expect it so the best you can hope for is
to make it hang one a bit longer. I'd suggest a Blue Thunder intake
and at least a 700DP to a 780CFM vacuum secondary carb.

>Also, I was wondering how much HP I would actually see by going to
>roller rockers.

Very little. There's some friction reduction but the usual horsepower
increase attributed to roller rockers are due to an increase in rocker
ratio but you're already at 1.73:1, not 1.5 (SBC) or 1.6 (SBF).
The best reason to run roller rockers is to prolong valve guide life.
A windage tray might free up a few horsepower for not too much money.

>They seem to be strong believers in the Australian 2v heads for the
>street.

I run them on one of my 351C's. They have their place but for a
Cobra I'd jump right to 4V heads, preferably with closed chambers.
2V heads flow about 210 CFM with a decent valve job. 4V's flow
closer to 290 CFM. With a bit of cleanup 300+ CFM is typical.
It takes quite a bit of portsing to get an Aussie 2V into the 250
to 260 CFM range.

>I, myself built a 400m with 4v quenced heads with spacer plates
>and an Edelbrock torquer and 750 Holley combo.

Those can be quite strong. I've got a couple of 400's stored away
myself, one with the rare small block bellhousing bolt pattern.
A Holley Strip Dominator will make a bunch more power than the Torker
on that engine if has a decent cam and compression.

>393 is the max they build clevelands.

Don't tell that to my 408C stroker (4" stroke, 4.030" bore, 6" rods).
Cleveland deck height is 9.2", so the math works out to:

piston pin height = deck height - (rod length + crank stroke/2)
= 9.2 - (6.0 + 4.0/2)
= 1.2 inches

331 and 347 cubic inch strokers are popular for 5.0L Ford V8's these days.
5.0L V8's have a deck height of 8.2", so plugging the pertinent values
into the formula yields:

deck height - (rod length + stroke/2) = pin height
8.2 - (5.4 + 3.4/2 ) = 1.100 inches
8.2 - (5.4 + 3.25/2 ) = 1.175 inches

so you can see the 1.2" pin height of my 408C stroker is better than the
popular 5.0L stroker kits.

>I believe I would recommend an Edelbrock Torker and a 650 Holley DP.

The Torker might gain a bit of power upstairs but there are better
intakes. The best dual plane is the Blue Thunder high rise and the
best single plane is the Strip Dominator. Given the mild cam and
compression, I'd opt for the Blue Thunder, for a stouter engine the
Strip Dominator.

>If you are going to build a 427 Cleveland, you are going to have to
>use an aftermarket block or a 400 block because cleveland block doesn't
>have enough deck height.

It can be done and I've laid hands on a 430 cube 351C but it was
a drag only motor (small journal rods, narrow ring pack) and isn't
recommended for the street. For the street, a 408C is a good
compromise.

>But try the 600 you have first on the Torker- it might surprise you.
>Performer is restrictive.

The Torker is considered a dog in Pantera and drag circles. The
Performer is okay for a heavy vehicle and automatic. 600 CFM is
too small. The stock 4300D carbs were 715 CFM. I run a 735 CFM
Holley on my Pantera and still pull down 20+ MPG on the highway.

>Compression ratio is also a little low for 4v heads also. These
>Clevelands like compression!

Yes. The best approach is flat top pistons and closed chamber
heads for a stock stroke engine.

>Try talking with the pantera crowd, they run that motor.

Yes we do :-)

Dan Jones
1974 DeTomaso Pantera L

Glad the expert showed up. Since the Pantera folks showed up, I'll just hush.

Thanks guys
 

Daniel.

You hit is right on the nose about the cam. It is the Fords motorsports cam. Windage tray and 'scraper' was added when I changed the pan. The tray is the type that mounts in the pan and not to the mains. I only use contact adhesive for the gaskets as well. But I did seal the ends with red rtv. I kept the 'turkey' pan but cut off boths sides where it meets the heads and the crossover is blocked.

I am looking to extend it up a bit. With the HP curve being completely flat from 5300 to 6100, I think we can. So how about a Blue Thunder intake and 770 vacuum secondary street avenger carb? Could I expect maybe another 20 or 30? How about advancing (retarding?) the cam a couple of degrees?

I do not want to hurt the drivability that I enjoy now. Simply want the engine to be all that it can.

Thanks

Rick

Howdy,

Hey Dude, I'm a 351c man myself and You need more cam, like a Comp cams 280H or 290HR, a bigger carb, like a Demon 750, and a Weiand X-cellarator intake, and more compression.

Good luck and Clevelands ROCK!!