Perpetual valve cover leaks...

Remod · #1 (**permalink**) 08-08-2006, 08:18 PM

Despite the fact that I performed an exhaustive search on this forum for gasket replacement how-to threads, and found much good advice, I still have a leak.

I bought Moroso steel frame and rubber gaskets that cost a bunch, was told by the motorhead behind the counter that no sealer was necessary, just clean everything up, and torque the bolts to about 5 ft lbs. ( 60 inch lbs ) One side is fine, except for some slight weeping up through the bolt threads, but the right side has oil on top of the headers after only 20 miles. I see oil working its way out the bolts as well on this side too.

Holy cow, what does it take to make this problem go away ?

Cashburn · #2 (**permalink**) 08-08-2006, 08:34 PM

What valve covers are you running on what heads and with what part number gaskets?

Remod · #3 (**permalink**) 08-08-2006, 08:44 PM

Cashburn,

The covers are the cast aluminum jobs with the words COBRA, powered by Ford cast into them.

The gaskets are the Moroso #93060 molded rubber over steel frame, and 3/16" thick.

The heads are AFR. Any more than that I don't know.

Any help would be appreciated!

millennium200 · #4 (**permalink**) 08-08-2006, 09:45 PM

On some aftermarket heads the upper or lower valve cover bolt holes are sometimes drilled through into the intake or a oil gallery. Just use some thread sealer on the valve cover bolts.

Tim Brewer · #5 (**permalink**) 08-08-2006, 09:46 PM

Place your valve covers on something that you know is perfectly flat to make sure they are not warped.

Rick Parker · #6 (**permalink**) 08-08-2006, 10:37 PM

This will not be something you will immediately want to accept. The moulded gaskets are really intended for valve covers similar to those on a 5.0 Mustang, and some of the after market Ford Motorsport valve covers. They (the 5.0 covers) have somewhat of a "rolled over" outer edge on the gasket mating surface that helps contain AND seal the gasket. The type of valve cover you are using are milled flat (assuming it is not warped) on the gasket surface and is intended to use a flat gasket. Get a high quality cork gasket such as that made by SCE # 136076 or Fel-Pro (High Performance Series # 1645). Both are 5/16" thick. The SCE's have the little locating tabs, the Fel-Pro's do not. Use a contact adhesive (such as 3M or Permatex weather strip adhesive in a tube) on one side and attach them to the valve covers after cleaning the suface with carb cleaner or lacquer thinner Put a small ring of adhesive around the bolt holes of the valve cover.. Let them set for a few minutes and then install the covers with the gaskets attached to the heads dry. Be sure to wipe the mating surface on the heads clean of oil before intalling the covers. Snug them down. Start the vehicle and drive it a short distance (4 or 5 miles) just enough to get everything hot. Shut it down and recheck the bolts, they will need to be snugged down 3 or 4 more times untill they take a firm "Set" and compress as far as they are going to. This takes a few heat cycles. They will NOT leak if you do it like this. But be forwarned .....the cork will relax and the bolts will be loose until the heat cycling causes the cork to firm up. You may even want to use a little locktite on the bolts after the gaskets take their final "Set". I experienced a leak myself until the heat cycling took effect. This procedure has worked well for me. I would encourage you to use studs instead of bolts.

jdog · #7 (**permalink**) 08-08-2006, 11:01 PM

I agree with Rick, studs!

jdog

mrmustang · #8 (**permalink**) 08-09-2006, 04:21 AM

Felpro gaskets are a must, studs are the way to go but not 100% necessary to achieve a leak free seal. Prepping the valve cover and the head are the key as you must remove all gasket material from both before you start and wipe the area down with either prepsolve, or brake clean. Use a small amount of 3M gasket adhesive (I prefer black RTV) and coat one side of the gasket material, glue the gasket to the valve cover and allow it to set overnight. Next, add a small amount (I use my finger just to coat the gasket material on both sides) of RTV on the other side and place the valve cover on the head and torque to spec. Do not over torque the bolts/nuts or you can (and will) distort the valve cover enough to leak. I have been doing this on countless engines for the pasdt twenty years (including the dreaded chromed valve covers) and have never had a leakage issue, not even when subjecting my engine to hi RPM's under road racing conditions......

Hope you find it helpful.

Sincerely,

Bill S.

Remod · #9 (**permalink**) 08-09-2006, 08:37 AM

Thanks for all your help guys!

I'm still a little turned around on this issue, as some guys curse the cork gaskets and swear by the rubber ones.

Rick, the moroso gaskets I have are flat, like both the mating surfaces of the heads and covers, so I think that is a non-issue.

Mr. Mustang, I will go the mounted stud route, and give the felpro cork gaskets another try. Those are the leakers I pulled off in the first place. Maybe the previous owner didn't re-torque as needed ?

What I don't understand is why the manufacturer of my particular gasket (Moroso rubber) won't offer any torque specs. Could it be I just need tighten them a little more ? I'm at 5ft lbs, which SEEMS very tight to me, but I read somewhere 7-10 ft lbs is about right. That just SEEMS to be a bit much.

A set of fel-pro rubber gaskets is enroute to my house from summit racing as we speak. I can always go back to cork, but since I already own two sets of rubber over steel, I'm determined to exhaust my possibilities with these. I can't help but think this is a torque related issue with these. At the moment, the one side is leaking where three tall plastic plug wire mounts are located, which the valve cover bolts are inserted through. They seem to be crushing down some under the torque, and possibly giving me false torque readings. It's just my observation that no leaks occur where the bolts contact the valve cover directly, giving me very positive feedback as to their tightness, or lack thereof.

If more torque fails, and removing the spark plug wire mounts fails, then I will pull it all apart again and check the covers for warpage and go the cork route again. Anybody have a part number for the good fel-pro cork gaskets ?

Thanks again for letting me vent!

Excaliber · #10 (**permalink**) 08-09-2006, 10:47 AM

I changed to studs after having trouble with bolts, BUT, it sure makes the cover more difficult to get off.

davidlee · #11 (**permalink**) 08-09-2006, 12:35 PM

Remond
Is it possible that the bolts are too long thus bottoming out in the head and not really compressing the gasket? Just a thought.
david

Rick Parker · #12 (**permalink**) 08-09-2006, 12:36 PM

Ernie: You have to undo the nuts..............

Burnd · #13 (**permalink**) 08-09-2006, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Remod

Thanks for all your help guys!

A set of fel-pro rubber gaskets is enroute to my house from summit racing as we speak. I can always go back to cork, but since I already own two sets of rubber over steel, I'm determined to exhaust my possibilities with these. I can't help but think this is a torque related issue with these.
If more torque fails, and removing the spark plug wire mounts fails, then I will pull it all apart again and check the covers for warpage and go the cork route again. Anybody have a part number for the good fel-pro cork gaskets ?
Thanks again for letting me vent!

Remod:
You asked for a solution and Rick Parker gave you "the answer". You're either a glutton for punishment or didn't get the answer YOU wanted to hear. Either way; your fighting a very simple solution. The corks have the depth of "cushy" in them that the rubber doesn't and if you follow Parker's simple steps; they WILL NOT LEAK. By attaching them to the valve cover only; you will also get to remove them once or twice more without leakage. Any more than that and they will start leaking. I have been to that show too. The simple, old fashion, salt of the earth basic application is still the best way to do it. (BTW: I personally do not use any form of "hard tack" for adhesive). We do it the same way Parker does and everything else finds a way to leak but NOT the valve covers. FWIW

clayfoushee · #14 (**permalink**) 08-09-2006, 01:20 PM

In addition to the good advice you received above, it also helps to add a little dab of RTV to the area highlighted below.

Remod · #15 (**permalink**) 08-09-2006, 01:29 PM

Burnd,

I do have an open mind here, its just that the proponents of each side, ( cork vs. rubber ) are equally enthusiastic about their favorite product. Both sides think the other is wrong.

I have already spent the money on rubber, and they are already installed. I have nothing to lose but some oil to see if I can make them work. If not, I start over with cork. If I don't at least try, I will have learned nothing.

Clayfoushee, I'm beginning to think this is where my biggest problem is....the oil seems to come from the bolt holes. I wonder if rubber washers under the aluminum washers could help in this situation as well ??

Davidlee, Yes I did check the length of the bolts. They were 1" long and I think they were bottoming out. I now have 3/4" , so thats not an issue any longer.

RedBarchetta · #16 (**permalink**) 08-09-2006, 01:45 PM

FWIW, I too spent good money on the high dollar Moroso gaskets. And like you, I too have leaking. I'll be buying some traditional cork gaskets this weekend and replacing per the procedures that others here have documented. The Moroso gaskets will make great garage wall art that just screams "motorhead lives here."

Remod · #17 (**permalink**) 08-09-2006, 01:56 PM

When I go back to the parts house where I got the Moroso's, and tell them they don't work, they are going to laugh their A$$'s off.

They will think I'm an idiot. Thats all those guys use, because they reuse 'em after every valve lash adjustment without any leaks ever.

Now I'm going to have to mail order everything from now on...

Hey Red, how are those 3" pipes doing ? After driving them for awhile, are they too loud or not? I'm seriously considering that project myself...

.

Quote:

The Moroso gaskets will make great garage wall art that just screams "motorhead lives here."

Make that gullible motorhead lives here...

Burnd · #18 (**permalink**) 08-09-2006, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Remod

Burnd,

I do have an open mind here, its just that the proponents of each side, ( cork vs. rubber ) are equally enthusiastic about their favorite product. Both sides think the other is wrong.

I have already spent the money on rubber, and they are already installed. I have nothing to lose but some oil to see if I can make them work. If not, I start over with cork. If I don't at least try, I will have learned nothing.

Clayfoushee, I'm beginning to think this is where my biggest problem is....the oil seems to come from the bolt holes. I wonder if rubber washers under the aluminum washers could help in this situation as well ??

Remod:
I hear ya.... I hate conflicting opinions too. I'd probably do the same thing you're doing. (If I "can't" get MY way to work; I'll do it THEIR way). I was laughing when I typed it because I KNOW how you feel. I was giving Keith Craft a hard time when two other motorheads were disagreeing with him. However; on another note that would REALLY pith me off is the picture of Clayfoushee's heads. He's not circling the stud. He's highlighting the "offset" mate between the head and the intake manifold. That gap is a leak just begging to spew oil. Craft and I had a huge fight with Edelbrock over that crap. That's lousy, crummy, sloppy Edelbrock machining and quality. Their response to it was; it fit's "within" their specs (NOT Fords). The gap in mine was .060 high in the back of the drivers side head and flush in the front. It was the opposite on the passenger's side head. I ripped those heads off and put stock heads on as a trial and they "flush" mated, front and back, both sides. Craft flew up and brought me another set of stage 2 heads and we had the same issues. He had a whole "lot" that came to him that way. He wasn't a happy camper either. With Keith in our shop; we "shaved" them on the manifold surface and they flushed out for a perfect mate. If you have that mis-mate; then you have to fill that gap. Clayfoushee is right. It's a weak link and hit or miss on leaking. Any excessive crankcase pressure and it's just waiting to blow out and dump oil on the headers. If you shave and flush it out it won't leak at all. I've been to that movie too. I would also suggest putting a little squirt of silicon in the bottom of the front and back manifold bolt holes plus a little on the bolt threads if you have Edelbrock heads. The bottom of those holes are a RCH from breaking into the water jackets (or in most Edlebrocks,) already have broken into the water jackets. I hope you get it worked out. Cause I HATE leaks too. Believe me when I tell you: my frame will "NEVER" rust. It's well oiled.

Bernie

SuperHart · #19 (**permalink**) 08-09-2006, 02:37 PM

You are obviously using small block Ford heads. Some aftermarket heads have the bolt holes for the valve covers tapped to only 1/2" whereas stock heads are tapped to at least 5/8". In the valve cover adapter kits I sell there have been some reports of problems similar to yours caused by the bolts being a little too long causing them to bottom out before attaining a good seal with the cover and the gasket. Rather than repost instructions here, click on the link below to my ADAPTER page and click on ADAPTER INSTRUCTIONS. You will find detailed instructions on how to solve this problem. Also, placing a "ring" of silicone sealer around each bolt before tightening them down will usually prevent oil from seeping out around the gasket and the bolt. Good luck.

Cobrabill · #20 (**permalink**) 08-09-2006, 03:05 PM

Remod-cork or rubber-your choice.Use elephant snot(3M trim adhesive-the yellow stuff) and glue the gasket to the VC.You can use a $hitload of clothes pins (or the like)to make sure there are no air pockets.LET THEM DRY OVERNIGHT.Then use a thin film of grease or red/grey permatex on the head side and yer done.