Titling my ERA GT

[cward2]

Flame suit on, here we go.

ERA assembled a GT in 1995/1996 for original purchaser. Has the handwritten ERA invoices with receipt for ERA's purchase of transmission and all components excepting engine (4 pages worth). Engine components (including new SVO block) purchased and assembled by outside competition engine builder with a paid invoice. Engine delivered to ERA for installation in 1996 and final tuning of Webers.

Seller drove a few thousand miles without ever titling vehicle.

I purchased in late 2003. Seller had invoices from ERA and engine builder but had lost Certificate of Origin. I said I would not purchase without CofO. Seller calls ERA and obtains a replacement and money changes hands with a Bill of Sale and signed over CofO.

Car comes off trailer 3 weeks later at home. Runs so poorly that it had to be carbs + electrics + fuel pick ups from sitting. Turns out to be all 3. Tinker with it a lot over a year and finally get in good working order in 2004 (also got to fix a busted ZF box which had an anomaly of sorts). Read titling discussions here and other message boards. Say to self, egad I'm not taking that gamble on a loose process with my money/investment.

I drive it in light autocross. Very occasional street for showing/charity rides only. Keep insured (duh) and state inspected. Life intervenes. Put it in secure storage where it gets very very limited exercise. For many many years.

Come late 2011. Life calms down and I decide to get the GT back on the road and title (finally). Read that a new Registration process is coming that will clarify for all. Great since I'm not a big fan of arbitrary and capricious.

Get the bulletin #004-12. Sounds like an Mk1 ERA GT is clearly a "Custom Vehicle" - a vehicle manufactured to resemble a vehicle that is at least 25 years old and of a model year after 1948; and has been altered from the manufacturer's original design or has a body constructed from materials not original to the vehicle. The next page of the memo even has a list of what you need for initial application for Texas Title! Woohoo!

So over the last 3 weeks I get everything together. Certified weight. Statements filled out. ASME Master inspection and sign off. Meet local police for VTR-68-A. Tell them no serial number on engine since its a new block but have receipt new block purchase/build. Can call builder who retained a build sheet even. We call local Ford high performance parts dealer who verifies no serial number on new blocks purchased over the counter. Says satisfied not stolen and sends VTR-68-A to TXDOT local title office later that day (say many were being altered between delivery and title application so now they deliver directly).

Go to TXDOT today at opening to initiate process. Very helpful lady shoots my stack of stuff to supervisor quickly. He goes through paperwork. Asks a few simple questions. I happily answer since we're underway and they are being very courteous (really were!).

Supervisor calls me over. Says can't do it as a Custom Vehicle. The ERA GT is not "showing up" as an eligible Custom Vehicle and the serial number is wrong and there's no motor number. Glad I bought the ERA brochure along! Here's a full page description of the car it replicates. Tada! I explain I understand that the state might want to assign a VIN to the vehicle. No problem. I've got the area cleaned up and ready for a sticker. Motor number is another easy one. Just call the local high performance dealer. Heck I told him to expect a call today!

Not happening. They go to the back. Call more. Come back and ask for engine receipt. Go back. More phone. Same answer.

Came back and looking for a way to move forward, recommend getting a Texas assigned VIN and applying at the regular county office as an assembled vehicle ("ASVE"). They say that then when I receive the assembled vehicle title go back and convert to a Replica/Custom Vehicle title.

Guys and gals at the office are trying to be helpful throughout. Apologize for things taking so long (yeah people around me are already yelling at these guys over title stuff, tough job). I say thanks and trudge to work, as frustrated as 8 years ago. Maybe time to get a dealer's license....

So I have to say, I'm more than a little frustrated. I understand an ASVE title is listed for vehicle year as when applied for so this would be a 2012 ASVE GT40 Replica. My hopes that I could title as a 1965 Ford GT 40 Replica appear to have reached an end.

As you might expect, YMMV in your office but I was at the TXDOT office, not same vague county location.

Thoughts?

CW

[SSSammy]

Ok, I'll offer some thoughts, since I have been through the ASVE process in TX (Collin County). Again this assumes you go the ASVE route ...

* abandon all hope of titling it as a vintage car, it is not vintage. If you choose ASVE as opposed to custom, it will be a 2012 ASVE replica of a 1965 Ford.
* Make sure your insurance card describes it as a 1965 Ford Replica
* You can get a paper tag for $15 so you are legal to drive to the inspection.
* Get it inspected at your nearest DPS Waiver Site, not a commercial inspection station. It will need a "waiver" for emissions, which it is entitled to receive. You need an appointment.
* You do not need a TX issued VIN, your VIN is ERA2064 as stated on the COO. Find the vin plate on the chassis and do a pencil tracing of it. Use Tx form VTR-301 for that.
* You sound like you are on a first name basis with your title clerk, so if you present all the receipts for the body and components, Form VTR-301, Form 130U, and Form VTR-61 (affadavit that you built the car from components), you ought to be able to succeed.

I received my car as a rolling chassis, and completed the engine, trans and interior install in 2007 and then got the 2007 ASVE title, which has a "comment" that it is a 1965 Ford Replica. This gets me past the emissions test. You should not owe any TX sales tax.

Good luck, don't quit!
Sam

[cward2]

Thanks Sam!

For the DPS emissions waiver, do you know is this waiver a low mileage waiver? I see 4 listed on the DPS website and my experience tells me I better know what I need.

Or

Is it so simple that the DPS just look at my insurance listing a "1965 FORD GT40 Replica" and give me an inspection as a 1965 and emissions waiver as appropriate for a 1965 vehicle?

I will call the Houston DPS Waiver Site after lunch.

Thanks again for your experience and encouragement.

CW

[elmariachi]

I assume from all this that the car has not been emissions OR safety inspected in Texas. Based on that, here is how you go about getting it titled as a 1965 under the new rules:

You do not need a DPS emissions waiver nor do you even need to involve the DPS. The MCO/MSO established it as a replica of a 1965 and it is NOT required to have emissions nor pass any sort of DMV/DPS test. It just like registering a new Ford truck in every respect. All you need is your insurance card showing it as a 1965 Ford GT40 and take that card and the car ONLY and have it safety inspected at a local Kwik or Jiffy Lube. I am in Houston and if you are near Cypress send me an email and I will tell you where I have mine done, they are knowledgeable about this.

When you get it to the inspection station tell them you want a SAFETY inspection and show them your insurance card ONLY. You need to have insurance with a replica-friendly carrier that knows how to insure and paper these cars. DO NOT involve the MSO at the Jiffy Lube, its not needed or relevant to them. They will safety inspect the car and if you are assertive and tell the you will drive and they will ride on the brake test, they won't even expect to even drive it. They will enter it into the state DMV system as a 1965. You'll get your inspection sticker applied and a print out. Take that print out, your MCO/MSO, bill of sale, insurance card and checkbook back to the tag office. You said TXDOT below but let's be clear, you need to go to one of Don Sumner/Harris County Tax Assessor offices where normal vehicle licensing takes place. (If that's what you meant, no biggie, just clarifying that you do not go to a TXDOT office.) Take the VIN pencil trace as a backup, but your MCO/MSO is the operative document for this transaction. Now because you have already sort of created extra work for yourself with your first visit with all those VIN issues, if it were me I would just go to a different county clerk/tag office. Walk up to the glass and tell them you want to register that car. They'll pull that same inspection record up in the state DMV database and it will appear as a 1965 FORD GT40 using your ERA VIN. Once you are at that stage, tell them you understand that car is eligible to be registered as a 1965 and see if they will proceed under the new rules. If not, then take the ASVE route and then when your renewal is due next year walk in and apply for a title conversion under the new rules and they will grant it. I stopped by my local office and asked them about switching my 2009 ASVE to a 1966 title and they said it was easily provided for under the new rules. However, I learned I'd have to surrender my 1966 plates and run new plates so I said no thanks. Having it titled as a 1965 will not make it worth any more money.

EDIT>>>Not discounting what Sammy wrote above, I am just relating how things have worked for us here in Harris County.

[cward2]

More helpful observations Sr. Mariachi. Thanks for your experience.

BTW, I was at the TXDOT title office, rather than county, since I had the police inspection under the new rules (VTR-68-A form). The Houston Police deliver these completed forms directly to the TXDOT due to some forgery that people had done in the past (imagine that!) The TXDOT guys wouldn't give me the form to go to a county office, they would just start the process. Kind of it turned out.

I'll take it to have inspected at the same place that I had do the ASME Master inspection under the new procedure. They would be happy to do a regular inspection and I had followed all the prior years' advice here and have it insured as a 1965 FORD GT 40 Replica with my VIN.Interestingly the Houston DPS Waiver office didn't answer their line this afternoon so obtaining an appointment through them might be its own challenge....

One thing that I'm considering as a possible problem for the non-ASVE route is that the Certificate of Origin says "For a Composite Vehicle / ERA Replica Automobiles" with my VIN, and ERA as Make but under Model it says simply "MK1." We all know what MK1 means but if a title clerk is looking for "GT40" or "GT40 Replica" on the Certificate, they aren't going to find that. I can bring all the ERA sales support material with pictures of the car and give it a go at the county office. Luckily its a short hike from my office.

Thanks again,

CW

[elmariachi]

I had been recalling from memory on the new rules, but here they are:

Registration and Title Bulletin - #004-12

See attachment and section on "Custom Vehicle." As I read it if you want to pursue registering this as a 1965 car, the brand on your title will be REPLICA, not Ford or ERA. These are the rules the local county tag office will follow if you take that path. It also explains what happens if you go the ASVE route and want to convert later. Notice that as Sammy said earlier a pencil tracing suffices rather than going through the form VTR-68A process and inspection.

Also see item 18 on the attachment. Personally I would rather have an ASVE title, which lays in a drawer than no one sees and my original 1966 black plates that makes the car look vintage, than have a 1965 title laying in a drawer that no one sees and says REPLICA anyway, and have to run those those doofy looking plates that say "Custom Vehicle."

Jim


p.s. Screw all this titling crap and get over here and take me for a ride in that bad boy.

[SSSammy]

Originally Posted by cward2

Thanks Sam!

For the DPS emissions waiver, do you know is this waiver a low mileage waiver? I see 4 listed on the DPS website and my experience tells me I better know what I need.

Thanks again for your experience and encouragement.

CW

The low mileage registration is for "Antique" plates that have no inspection sticker requirement at all. You are just supposed to drive to shows and club events and back home. This is not how we use our cars

Elmariachi, no problem at all. If you can shepherd CW thru the Harris Cty version of this, good enough! As we know, the process is consistent in it's inconsistency

Sam

[cward2]

Sam and Jim,

That link is actually what I used as my guide when I went into the TXDOT to retrieve my 68-A and apply for title. They just still didn't know what to do with a new title applicant versus converting an ASVE and essentially admitted that. I gotta say they were really pleasant though.

But now I'm excited. Is that a light at the end of the tunnel or just a car in the wrong lane. The two of you have really helped me lay out a plan.

I'm going to go tomorrow afternoon and get the car in the state TXDOT system by having it inspected as a 1965 Ford GT40 Replica with my ERA vin.

Then I'll head to the county on Monday morning and apply for an ASVE title. Seems the simplest and most straight forward. It seems a tactic is to have just enough paperwork to get it titled but let the title clerk define the process they would like to follow. So know the rules but don't have so much paperwork that you raise your own compliance "bar" to unachievable by reasonable means.

If the county says I need to go get the emissions waiver, then make sure everything else is correct and then obtain the waiver. If I get issues with a state inspection next year, then I'll go ahead and convert like the memo says.

Thanks again guys. I'll keep you updated. I knew the passage of time wasn't going to help my situation but driving it these last few weeks has been so much fun (except when a fuel pump lost its ground on I10 2 weeks ago in a shakedown drive).

Chuck

[elmariachi]

Hey Chuck,

One other thing to note.....you can go to two different tag offices and have two entirely different experiences. You can always grab your stuff and pull back and regroup.

Here are the other TXDMV docs that outline the previous method for obtaining an ASVE tile. You might want print these and take them with you, especially given that emissions is not mentioned:

Docs - a set on Flickr

FYI this was not a published book, I got it from the chief at the DMV in Austin.

[cward2]

After a manic Monday, I'm ready to head in tomorrow and give it a go. I found the Texas Motor Vehicle Title Manual on the TXDOT site http://ftp.txdmv.gov/pub/txdot-info/...l_book_451.pdf and have printed out the relevant ASVE and Replica pages for possible back up.

Reading all this I think the potential problem might be that I have a new SVO block which is unstamped (as all over the counter blocks are). No pencil tracing for the motor seems like it might be a potential red flag.

I guess my options are to either 1) stamp the pad on the block (pretty easy in a GT40) and trace that as the starting point for title (I do have the original receipt from the build plus the bill of sale to me) or 2) go with the 68-A which kicks an Assigned Number need or 3) go to the title office with my receipts and if asked explain its a new block with no motor number. There is a casting number of course but that's largely untraceable plus not a real motor number.

Chuck

Note 1 - Funny to me that Texas would get comfortable having the legal authorities say no motor number is present on a 68-A and then say that's okay after assigning a number to the chassis. You'd think they would want to assign a number to the motor instead. That's what makes me think that perhaps I should stamp my block and just move forward.

Note 2 - Did about 75 miles yesterday with my 14 y.o. son looking at new cars for him on I10 West. He's pretty mileage conscious and we're using a formula of purchase price plus 100,000 miles at $4/gallon for average fuel economy. It's amazing the array of way different cars get to the $34k-$36k mark. Good father son stuff. I worry he's seen me work on stuff so much over the years he's not interested in an older car. Of course its difficult to transfer the satisfaction I get from working with my hands after a day pushing paper.

I pointed out a sweet rust free 2002tii on Bring a Trailer which at $12k he could get his money back on after 100,000 miles of driving. Right about then when I started the GT, heat soak locked the starter solenoid on and I had to run to the back and turn the battery quick disconnect so as to save the starter/battery. As I was taking pride in my quick response and knowledge what to do so as to avoid being stranded, he correctly pointed out that would never happen in a Mini or Scion. I pointed out that girls dig sporty cars with style (had to try it). He said not so much any more, now they just dig $.

Made me feel old until the solenoid cooled off and we pulled out to a nice roar. He looked at me and then (I believe) understood what pride of ownership of something different and difficult means. It's not "I have it and you don't" like buying a Gallardo (which I do dig). It's about enjoying physical things that represent a different path. A less easy path for sure. And our path has a certain historical bent that makes it all the richer. It doesn't matter whether people slow down or take pictures or ask how fast it'll go.

I took him to school in it this morning. He walked in and said you could hear me pulling away in assembly. It really lugs at 20 MPH!

[SSSammy]

On the motor, if you have the purchase receipt for the aftermarket block, that ought to convince them it is not stolen. They told me that was the reason for wanting block rubbings.

Chuck, your buds here think you're cool, nevermind what your kid says about you

Good luck, anticipate inconsistency at the tag office!

Sam

[damdfw]

Jim,
I have always wondered about using Model Year plates legally. The way I read the documentation it seems fairly straight forward. You should complete the Antique or Classic form. When you sign either of these forms you are stating that the car (the frame, body and motor) is at least 25 years old. (Don't want to hi-jack this thread, Always be curious.)

Model Year Plates
Have the original, model year plates for a vehicle? As long as they're Texas-issued, have the proper color, and are in a usable condition, you may apply to use them by completing either the classic or the antique vehicle form, whichever fits the situation.

Bring the form and plates with you to your county tax office, where the plates will be inspected for suitability of use.

It costs $10 annually to display the plates, although local extra fees may be added.
Texas License Plates & Placards Information at DMV.org: The Unofficial DMV Guide

Originally Posted by elmariachi

I had been recalling from memory on the new rules, but here they are:

Registration and Title Bulletin - #004-12

See attachment and section on "Custom Vehicle." As I read it if you want to pursue registering this as a 1965 car, the brand on your title will be REPLICA, not Ford or ERA. These are the rules the local county tag office will follow if you take that path. It also explains what happens if you go the ASVE route and want to convert later. Notice that as Sammy said earlier a pencil tracing suffices rather than going through the form VTR-68A process and inspection.

Also see item 18 on the attachment. Personally I would rather have an ASVE title, which lays in a drawer than no one sees and my original 1966 black plates that makes the car look vintage, than have a 1965 title laying in a drawer that no one sees and says REPLICA anyway, and have to run those those doofy looking plates that say "Custom Vehicle."

Jim


p.s. Screw all this titling crap and get over here and take me for a ride in that bad boy.

[SwiftDB4]

I'm not familiar with the pecularities of TX registration, but your SEMA Custom law sounds very close to the SEMA bill we got thru WA last year. We too had some hassles with State Police inspectors misinterpreting the new law. We had to get WA DOL to clarify the law. If you have to, go to different inspectors. I drove 150 miles to Seattle because my local inspectors still didn't understand Custom registration. Having a 1966 title will vastly increase your resale value especially to buyers from states without SEMA laws. Anyway persevere and enjoy your 40!
D. Miller
SPF GT40

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by damdfw

Bring the form and plates with you to your county tax office, where the plates will be inspected for suitability of use.

I didn't complete either form, I used a standard VTR-130 and the clerk did the rest. Once you have a good set of plates, provided they are not assigned to another car, you are good to go. But you CANNOT run the old plates with this new "Replica" title, you have to run the Classic plate.

Anyone heard from cward2 about how his titling day went?

Jim

[krkucin]

Going through similar title issues in Minnesota right now. Most irritating thing is that the rules are not the same from state to state. I could go to Colorado and register my 2004 Superformance as a 1966 Cobra, but here in Minnesota, it's a 2004 ASVE. After 2014, sounds like I can get collector plates as there are less than 500 of these built a year.(Superformance) But I'm sure there will be some issues at that point too.

[cward2]

So like most of the free world, my life stepped in and occupied the last few weeks with an 8th grade graduation (who started that crap) and a high school graduation (those still make sense at least).

I did go get a state inspection with the Green Slip (or white slip as it is now). After chatting with a friend that ran a dealership to determine the best time to head downtown (btw, he said 1:30 PM), I put everything that I had in a folder.

Right Pocket
1. Title Application
2. VIN Tracing form (got a really nice one even)
3. Insurance
4. Built/Parts affidavit
5. MCO
6. Bills of sale for 1) my purchase and 2)parts and ERA purchases of original owner

Left Pocket
Police Inspection Form (68)
Photos
ERA brochure backup
2012 ASVE Txdmv guidelines

Waited about 10-15 minutes in line. Nice lady asked if she can help me. Got the blank return stare after my request for an assembled vehicle title. She said, "Give me what you got there." Empty Right Pocket. She looks at what I have, goes to main clerk, comes back asking for picture. Oh look, I happen to have one here. Returns to clerk. Comes back asking for police inspection. I say I didn't think I needed one with the VIN tracing.

She starts to enter data into the software, and guess what, the state has a copy of the VTR 68 output in the system! I mentioned the tracing again plus the MCO with the same VIN. No need to use that assigned VIN! Repeat calmly. She stated they are sending it in for the state to solve which VIN to use. Didn't want a copy of the motor or ERA receipts. Just my Bill of Sale when I purchased. No question about a motor number or tracing even. But she took them and put them together in the packet. Huh.

Maybe I should have scooped up my paperwork and walked away. I think that if they use the TX VIN, I can actually have it replaced with the ERA VIN pretty easily from reading the manual (MCO copy plus affidavit plus ?).

http://ftp.txdmv.gov/pub/txdot-info/...l_book_451.pdf

Charged me for application and registration (less than $100). Walked out with tags and a sticker. Have no idea what I will receive in the mail. It seems to me a basic ability to read the following statment:

4. Pencil tracing of the frame number, body number, and die-stamped motor
number; and if an assigned number has been obtained, a completed Notice of
Assigned Number or Installation or Reassigned Vehicle Identification Number,
Form VTR-68-N must be attached.

Since I have spoken with the TXDMV guys in Austin and they promised to look at it if I have a non-MCO VIN on the title. FWIW, they say the MCO VIN always wins.

Thanks to everybody for their help and support. I know that my timeline and mis-start didn't help my situation any. I'll keep you updated.

Note to self, next time stamp the blank block with the manufacturer's VIN (ERA 2064 in my case). Then when you get rubbings, they will match. Then if you need the VTR 68, they will match. You will be following the law requiring the stamping of a replacement block in a vehicle.

[SSSammy]

... smells like victory to me, Chuck! You are hereby awarded your Texas Registration Expert - Silver classification. You must henceforth pay it forward by assisting the next newless cluebie in decoding this mystical process

Congratulations! See you at San Marcos 2013
Sam