Formula 1 USGP watching again at the flying pig

[Slither]

David;

I couldn't agree with you more! That nap between the green start and the checkered finish is a must!

[writerguy]

Originally posted by RACER X #99


Writerguy,
Wow a real photojournalist and you have spent many days in the Nascar pits and you still don't like Nascar.

Your not really a race fan.

Ok here is the simple facts as i see them and I AM A HUGE FAN OF RACING

Nascar is to Racing what the WWE is to Professional combat (boxing wresteling martial arts)

It is now a pre fabricated personality driven marketing vehicle that has NOTHING to do with the cars on the road today. A simple off the lot car that bares the name Monte Carlo (just like the race car) is decades more advanced in construction and technology than the Nascar's livery.

Racing an Oval has its own technical aptatude but passing should be "diving in" or something that does not require "getting a run on him" taking over a lap to execute

As the cars have nothing to do with the road cars they represent and the amazing amount of marketing and co branding being done they are a HUGE business. The adverage person on the street can probably name a few Nascar drivers and those passionate about the series will even brand themselves with stickers tatoos and t shirts. Good for them.

Guess what. Any series that pulls the crap they do on the track like the "Debris" yellow when there is 15 laps left or trys to orchastrate close racing by trying to keep the cars bunched up should not be considered racing by a real racing fan. It is SportsEntertainment just like Wraasseling.

The fact that Nascar is so dominant in this country means that in order to make a living I HAVE to cover it. I would much rather do SCCA pro, ALMS Grand Am or starMAZDA that is where the real racing is. IRL and Cart were great when they were together but the over reliance on Oval by the IRL has resulted in LESS of a draw for the races and conversly the images I create.

well now i have to go get my Dale Earnheart jr note pad and my tony stewart pen go and sit in my greg biffel recliner and find me some of that mark martin Viagra because my stories are coming on.

notherof myshots

[scottj]

F1, Nascar, or whatever, I never understood the all the fuss over WATCHING racing, or for that matter, sports in general.

Anybody wants to state comparisons between F1 and Nascar...race both and THEN tell me about it.

IMHO The type of racing most worth watching is one where the cars have 800HP, weigh 2300 lbs w/driver, and run on dirt. The only other stipulations I have is that it must be viewed from inside MY helmet with the steering wheel in MY hands and MY right foot firmly standing on the gas.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Scottj;
I agree with ya for the most part,driving a race car is soooooo much more fun than watching,since I started driving on a regular basis 3 years ago,I make a terrible spectator...........tried my hand at dirt track racing back around the early 90's,never could get the "feel" for the car(even had Mark Kinser give me some instructions and encouragement back then),worked with a team as a crew man for 5 years,then got burnt-out,left and did not go to a race for 5 years(still do not miss the dust and dirt),then tried asphalt road racing and as beginners luck would have it,did extremely well my first 3 times out and got hooked.................

Now I'm getting into it pretty heavy and hope to race at Daytona next year for the fall Vintage Race,if they will have me.......

David

[writerguy]

Originally posted by CowtownCobra


Writerguy, don't bother sending your rag my way, if its anything like the tripe you posted here it won't be worth lining the litter box.

Just my opinion.

that is the great part of all of this. My opinion may not be shared by you, but at least respect the fact i have one.
As I do yours.

[writerguy]

Originally posted by CowtownCobra


Writerguy, don't bother sending your rag my way, if its anything like the tripe you posted here it won't be worth lining the litter box.

Just my opinion.

that is the great part of all of this. My opinion may not be shared by you, but at least respect the fact i have one.
As I do yours.

[What'saCobra?]

CBill
"The needs of the many out-weigh the needs of the few."

Remind me not to vote for you for emperor.

When you get a chance, re-read the Constitution, Declaration of Independence and particularly the Bill of [Individual] Rights.
-------------------
Once Michelin declared their tires unsafe, no team could run them without voiding their entire insurance cover.

This problem is Michelin's, with support from BE. Their sales in the USA are already off and they needed this race image as a rescue. Write them off for US profits this year, again.

i already have given up buying them because of the french thing of the axis of weasels, Chirac and the new PM Vilpain.

Too bad, too, since they are usually great tires, but i will not pay to support french passive/aggressive behavior against our country, our president and our people.

i will, however, still enjoy french toast from time to time.

[What'saCobra?]

Psst!

Wouldn't you just love to overhear the conversation between the Renault and Michelin chairmen at the next Chirac rallye?

[Trevor Legate]

Originally posted by ToyCollector


Trevor,

Max Mosley is the FIA person in charge, not Bernie. I agree with your general sentiments on Bernie, but it was an FIA decision, not a F1 promoter decision. Ultimately, Michelin and the teams are the ones that decided to not race. The FIA gave them multiple choices. Again, Michelin and the teams ruined the race. [/b]

With all due respect TC - come on. Who do you think pulls Max's strings? Seriously...............
These are the two guys who decided they should leave a meeting with the team owners by climbing out of a ground floor window. To get respect, you have to earn it. Its a double act and MM does exactly what the Boss demands.
A few matters to take into account: at the Nurburgring last month Kimi stayed out driving a car with a tyre that was almost square. The pounding broke the suspension at around 180mph and the FIA sent a letter to all teams stating quite clearly that, in the matter of driver safety, drivers should be pulled out of the race if the tyres or any part of the car threatens to cause a crash. At Indy, Michelin told all their teams that they would not guarantee the tyres after 10 laps. What choice did the teams have? So now the FIA claim they are 'bringing the sport into disrepute'. The FIA will now attack the teams and Michelin to cover their own backs.
9 out of the 10 teams (including 2 Bridgestone teams) agreed to the building of a chicane. Guess which team refused?
I think you should be aware of the behind-the-scenes agreement made between Bernie and Ferrari that led to the team agreeing to pull out of the proposed new GPWC championship. Without telling their fellow competitors, they accepted $100 million to remain with Bernies circus. This was reported in no uncertain terms by Alan Henry of Autocar who has been writing about GPs for over 30 years. To quote:
"Ferraris history has been built firmly on the foundation of self interest ever since the Commendatore set up in business just after WW2. Let me also add that anybody who thinks about picking up the phone to contradict me needn't bother. Their time would be better spent acquainting themselves with the heritage of a sport they clearly do not understand. I am further baffled by how Ferrari can unilaterally sign an agreement which, by definition, is - or should be - an agreement between all the F1 teams."
Basically Ferrari can now veto any decision and do pretty much whatever they want, which is why they carry out as much testing as they like - all the other teams are limited. (Which is why they are banned from using Indy as a test track.) They also signed a 'Concorde Agreement' on their own - all these agreements, until now, have had to be signed by all the teams. (I could go on but its just too boring) So its a sport is it?

[Yetiman]

How this turned into a nascar discussion is beyond me, but whatever.

You can see where the fans were upset... they showed up and paid for Formula One, and a CART race breaks out


My opinion on the root cause is complicated. I feel that it is very hard to blame Tony George or the track for 'being fast', HOWEVER, the tire wear issues came about after the grinding of the new surface. Still not really the tracks fault, but a contributing factor.

Michelin... easy to blame, largely at fault due to inadiquate tire testing at the track which is their own fault and responsibility. In my opinion their attitude that they are catagorically not to blame only shows they are stonewalling to cover their azzes when they know they screwed up.

The FiA.. The real culprit, but not for the reasons mostly tossed around since Sunday.The FiA shoulders most of the blame (from my view) for attempting to cripple F1 cars with their one set of tires rule. To me it is rediculous.
They wanted to attempt to keep costs in line, and measures like their one engine rule are more sensible and comprehensible.
But trying to make one set of rubber last and having to set a fragile car up to go the distance on detiriating rubber seems like a disaster waiting to happen. Ask all the people (Kimi Raikonen) who have had suspension failures caused by something as simple as a flat spotted tire.

I do understand that there was an effort to make the teams build stronger more durable cars to handle this, but it seems ludicrus to me.

Thats the root cause of the Indy debacle as i see it.
_just my opinion_

[nikbj68]

Originally posted by Yetiman


...My opinion on the root cause is complicated. I feel that it is very hard to blame Tony George or the track for 'being fast', HOWEVER, the tire wear issues came about after the grinding of the new surface.....
Michelin... easy to blame, largely at fault due to inadiquate tire testing at the track which is their own fault and responsibility. In my opinion their attitude that they are catagorically not to blame only shows they are stonewalling to cover their azzes when they know they screwed up.

The FiA.. ..shoulders most of the blame (from my view) for attempting to cripple F1 cars with their one set of tires rule. To me it is rediculous....to attempt to keep costs in line....trying to make one set of rubber last and having to set a fragile car up to go the distance on detiriating rubber seems like a disaster waiting to happen.
Ask all the people (Kimi Raikonen) who have had suspension failures caused by something as simple as a flat spotted tire.
.....Thats the root cause of the Indy debacle as i see it.
_just my opinion_

Just a couple of things I`d like to throw into the ring here.
The Indy GP circuit, and in particular, turn 13 are not 'too fast'.
Tyre wear was not the issue. Wear can be predicted or monitored. Catastrophic failure due to either incorrect design or manufacture cannot be something to risk drivers/track workers/officials over. Sure, every time an F1 car turns a wheel on the track, there is a risk of a big accident, but when the manufacturer tells you(in terms such as '..cannot gaurantee the safety of the product...')that failure is a certainty, you gotta put the safety of lives first.
Raikonnen`s flat spot was a result of Raikonnen`s right foot, his accident was the result of his racers` instinct to keep going for that last lap and a bit when he should have come in.... either by his own choosing or the team`s decree.
Indy is not sanctioned as a F1 testing circuit as many are not, so if Ferrari/Bridgestone have tested at Indy, this is outside of the Concorde agreement(which we know a lot of Ferrari`s testing is).
Michelin, I believe, are to buy 20,000 tickets for next years` race, to be given to this years` ticketholders.
Michelin may well be charged with bringing the sport into disrepute, but this should be for failing to supply 'fit for purpose' tyres, not taking the only appropriate action of acting on safety concerns.

None of the above in any way excuses the farce that was the USGP.
I personally feel that they should have rescheduled qualifying, with the Michelin runners on 'safe' rubber, and a 'late' race, rather than any other attempts to chicane or whatever, and to be honest, it could have worked in favour of the Bridgestone-shod Red cars, having been outpaced by several of the Garlic-Rubbered teams.

[SACoupe]

Cbill
are u feeling lost since the rest of your group and Mr Koresh got nailed at waco??

[nikbj68]

....just found this in the statement made by the Michelin running teams this weekend...:

Ron Dennis, Mclaren:"“The option of racing did not exist.”

...the teams were later informed that under Indiana law they could be prosecuted for reckless endangerment if they had raced in the knowledge that there was a problem with the tyres, even if no accident had occurred."

Entire Statement here.

[What'saCobra?]

Well, wreckless endangerment could be a serious, but manageable charge.

No insurance cover because they breeched their safety warranties would expose them ALL to berry big buck liabilities...enough to submerse the sport in the USA...if there was a serious enough event as a result of ignoring the safety warnings.

Few folks recall how important insurance is to the sport and events in general. For instance, one of the serious problems in the NASA space programs has always been getting insurance to cover the risk of launches, space vehicles and satellites.

There exists a very good chance that the latest shuttle launch was delayed 'til the 13th of July because the insurance company refused cover without proper documentation of the corrective actions and of normal launch procedures.

FI USA is the same. When you buy cover, you agree to certain 'rules' such as following the FIA race safety measures and the recomendations of various suppliers in using their equipment. You agreement to these terms is posited in most policies somewhere as a 'Warranty of Performance' by you in exchange for coverage. You break your word, or breech your warranty and you are out in insurance limbo, without a friend.

You can buy BOW insurance also, but it is expensive. You buy it all the time when you purchase your car on payments. The loaner always wants his owed balance insured, even if you drink and drive on the wrong side of the road.

Tough to buy for an F1 race. But, i'll bet the track was covered, some; but not even enough.

[Trevor Legate]

What I still find unbelievable is that the guy who made certain that no race would take place, Max Moseley, has now slapped a potential fine on the 7 teams for 'failing to start the race'. How the hell could they????
If I was an F1 team manager I know where I would insert my fine - in loose change.
And how about fining Ferrari for not providing a race and running the cars to team orders? As soon as Schu almost took Rubens out, the cars suddenly dropped their pace by around 2 seconds a lap and cruised to the flag, even though the mighty Rubens said he would be racing to the finish. Yeah, nice one Rube - yet again. (I thought team orders had been made illegal?? Oh, sorry, illegal for 9 teams)

[Don]

** Turn 13:

http://www.formula1.com/race/circuitmap/740.html

** Technical analysis of Turn 13

http://www.formula1.com/race/technic...s/740/149.html

** BEFORE THE FIA WORLD MOTOR SPORT COUNCIL, SUBMISSIONS ON BEHALF OF 6 FORMULA ONE TEAMS, PARIS - 29 JUNE 2005

http://www.formula1.com/race/news/3244/740.html
_
** Radical shake-up proposed for Technical Regulations.

The FIA has officially revealed details of its plans to reform Formula One's Technical Regulations for the start of the 2008 season in a bid to reduce the costs of competing in the sport, whilst simultaneously attempting to increase competitiveness among teams. The proposed changes have been approved by the World Motor Sport Council and feedback on them is now being sought.

Major proposals include:

A single, control-spec Engine Control Unit (ECU) for all competitors, "manufactured by an FIA designated supplier to an agreed specification." This would make it possible to effectively enforce a ban on driver aids like traction control.

Standard gearboxes fitted with common parts for all cars - with control to be via a driver-operated clutch pedal and gearshift similar to those of a conventional manual-transmission road car.

Revised bodywork to reduce downforce by approximately 90 percent while allowing cars a wider track. This would allow cars to follow each other far closer through corners without the loss of aerodynamic grip and thus would be likely to increase opportunities for drivers to pass each other.

Tyres supplied by a single manufacturer to all teams, the reintroduction of slick tyres and larger wheels - plus a ban on tyre-heating devices.

A "minimum specified" centre-of-gravity for every Formula One chassis and improved impact testing, again to increase competitiveness, but also driver impact protection.

Standard brakes for all competitors to reduce development costs.

Greater control over which materials can be used for the construction of a car's bodywork - similar to changes controlling the use of "exotic" materials in engines that go into place in 2006.

The compulsory installation of a starter motor.

A ban on spare cars, with only spare chassis permitted at events.

A limit on testing to a maximum of 30,000km per team per year.

The right for a team to buy a complete car or any part of a car from another constructor, with "further discussion" over how this would effect the award of Constructors' Championship points.

[What'saCobra?]

As you have said, Mr. T, it's not Max, it's all Bernie, using Max as his foil.

i would suggest another liabillity. F1 teams act in concert, such as all meeting and agreeing to not race, yet they are supposed to be competitors. Such activities can be considered illegal in the US. For instance, the baseball teams get together and arrange salary rates & caps, attendence prices and many operations rules of their clubs. There are serious Federal statues that normally criminalize such collusion amongst otherwise competing businesses. Teams have a special dispensation from Congress to so arrange their affairs, which is what gives Congress the right to interfere and keep it 'fair', as they see it. And, of course, grandstand and pontificate, like McCain, for their presidential bid.

By refusing to race, en masse, the teams are raising this issue. Their revenue-sharing agreements exceed our law's limitations on carteling, for instance. While there is a serious safety issue at the heart of this particular matter, the form by which they acted creates a potential criminal risk.

Further, as if there isn't already enough confusion about this matter, suppose one person (a driver, a spectator, a corner worker or a team member) died as a result of a crash from just the ill handling of a Michelin-shod racer in the disputed corner, let alone a tire failure. The fall-out damage to the sport in the USA would be of enormous potential due to the publicity and all the powerful forces that would wade into the water and try to 'fix' the problem with publicity.

Because of this risk, which is not small, i wouldn't be at all surprized if Michelin's tire contract allows them to say, 'you're not racing on our tires over 100knots without a course kink...period'. i think that's essentially what they said.

Now, mind you, your point about Ferrari is very true also, the big F would scream like bloody murder if a kink in the course were provided for safety. They might even withdraw. Well, too bloody bad, ay? i am not sure everyone would cry this year if they missed a race or two or even withdrew for the season. They are only just competitive at the moment. But, Max and Bernie might not get their provisional bonus points in Switzerland this year and there just might be a serious safety inspection in Italy at the next GP. TFB. And, are all the Senna police issues and liabilities at last settled against Bernie and Williams?

While i believe in a level playing field and would normally resist changing things, safety is numero uno, everybody always says; so this would have been a good time to prove it.

The fine issue is rediculous for the FIA to apply, no matter what their rules. That is Bernie again. i think the teams could not possibly run the cars against Michelin's prohibitions. OK, a smart team might have gone out for a while, cooled it in the corner and come in frequently enough to fit the Michelin operating limitations issue, but they didn't do so because of this cartelized inter-team management structure.

Michelin is indeed smart to bit the bullet and offer to re-imburse everyone in some fashion. The exact nature of that settlement is yet on the table, but it is certainly the correct attitude and it is seriously in their PR favor.

Bernie will try to make this a team error, will protect Ferrari at any cost, will protect Michelin at any cost for about the same reasons (but not quite), but in my view and yours, is the man responsible. It was HIS call. HE made it. And it stinks and he will stink forever.

US fans are usually pretty forgiving. Look at the baseball strike fiasco. Attendence is now pretty good, particularly after last years dramatic World Series efforts. One really good GP and the US fans will return. They are NOT going to understand the FIA stuff very well. After all, it is, at the heart of it, french.

And while we have thanked them for their help over 227 years ago in our disagreements with your KGIII by saving their bacon in two WW's, little patience is left here for euro-weenies, epitomized by the Chirac/Schroeder/González Márquez triplets.

And we now know, as a result of yesterday's reporting of the Chirac/Shroeder/Putin conversations that despite his years in the US, Chirac neither likes British food and manners nor American hamburgers. Shock and horror, m'Dieu!

Such Anglophobia! Such (de)gaul! So yesterday's man for no seasoning... so... Bernie.

[Trevor Legate]

As ever, in agreement with all the above. Except it would have been totally impossible to set a speed limit thru the turn in question. Can you imagine Kimi R sticking to any kind of speed limit? I think not!!!
It is impossible to overstate how much control Bernie and Ferrari have over F1 issues. I recall that when Schu joined Ferrari, Bernie went on record saying that it was 'essential' that Schu and Ferrari became world champions 'for the good of the sport'. And Lo, it Came to Pass. Well gosh - or just call me cynical.....and look who was in charge of the cars - Rory Byrne, the same guy who could hide a 13th programme in his Benetton lap top that was an undisguised launch control. So who was fastest off the line at every GP? Micky the Schu. And what did the FIA do when they found this? Nothing. Because Byrne assured them that it was never used. Right.
The Senna issue was resolved just a few days ago with the Italian courts saying that in the light of sufficient accurate evidence, there was basically no case to answer. The case was brought against Patrick Head and Adrian Newey (not Bernie and Frank).
No comment on the delightful M. Chirac other than to point out he is a very ignorant little (add your own expletive)

[What'saCobra?]

TL
Even the re-incarnated flying Fin wouldn't find pause at a iron-rod-reinforced concrete berm chicane? Please, i want to watch.

Didn't mean to imply that BE and FW were in the final charges, but FW was certainly reported in our press in deep hot water as team owner/approving engineer. I only wondered if they could pick-up a new hassle, if Ferrari/Fiat decided to press the political buttons. Glad to know the case is over at last. But, in Italy, you know, it isn't over until you're dead and all your family and friends are dead...and then some.

i'd take an proper English breakfast to a parisian petite de any day, though not EVERY day due to weight and balance limitations on the 747-200.

It was nice to see Schroeder finally put it to Chirac, after their attempts at commandeering urope the last few years, with the only wisdom Herr S. has shown in the last 5 years...

'Schroeder refused to discuss Chirac's reported remarks [disparaging English Cusine] at a news conference. "No word from me on these secret talks," the chancellor said.'

' "... I hope I will get a decent steak [in Scotland]- I'm sure I will get one," a smiling Schroeder said. "Beyond that, I don't know English - or Scottish - cuisine well enough that I could really talk as an expert."'

Bif! Boom! Splat! Take that, Chirac!

[Cobrabill]

Wow-some people just don't get it.

My"needs of the many..." comment meant the FANS.

Regardless of Michelins' role in this debacle the FIA could have midigated the incident for the good of the fans AND the sport.

They chose not to.Therefore the blame is ALL theirs.

SAcoupe your comment is a complete non-sequitur.But with regards to your WACKO comment-there's nothing wrong with people getting shot-as long as the right people get shot.

What'sacobra-i'm more familiar with the constitution than you are.Your comment s just prove your a safe distance from genius.