TKO 600 shifter vibration in 4th

Grubby · #1 (**permalink**) 03-13-2011, 05:02 PM

I just swapped from a toploader to a TKO 600.

I took the car for its first real test ride since the swap and noticed quite a bit of shifter vibration in 4th gear while accelerating or at steady cruise. It completely goes away during decel. The same vibration is barely noticeable in the other gears.

No vibration is felt in the seat of my pants. The mirrors don't shake. It is only noticeable in the shifter.

Is this normal for TKOs? This car had no issues with the toploader. The driveshaft was shortened and balanced by a reputable shop. I also swapped Jag 3rd members to go from 3.07 to 3.54 ratio.

What do you all think?

John

LewPoberezny · #2 (**permalink**) 03-13-2011, 05:08 PM

My initial thought is did you replace the pilot bearing. I only say this because I believe in 4th gear the trans is in a 1:1 ratio with virtually no load inside the trans. If it was a ujoint you should feel it on decell also.

blykins · #3 (**permalink**) 03-13-2011, 05:10 PM

Did you use the shifter that came with it, or did you add an aftermarket shifter?

Grubby · #4 (**permalink**) 03-13-2011, 05:18 PM

Replaced pilot bearing - total run out was less than .001".

It has the stock shifter. I noticed quite a few post on several boards that this is somewhat of a typical problem. If a aftermarket shifter would fix the problem, I am interested. What do you suggest and how much will it cost?

John

blykins · #5 (**permalink**) 03-13-2011, 06:06 PM

You will get some noise with the aftermarket ones as well, probably even more so, as most of them aren't as NVH friendly as the stock pieces. That's why I asked that question.

An aftermarket shifter will make the transmission shift a lot better, but if there is an underlying problem, it will do nothing to help.

Did you make sure the transmission and engine mounts are good and tight?

mreid · #6 (**permalink**) 03-13-2011, 06:35 PM

Are you using the same bellhousing you used for the TL with a short input shaft TKO? If so, did a reputable shop install the input shaft?

Grubby · #7 (**permalink**) 03-13-2011, 06:37 PM

Checked fasteners and mounts today.

I didn't notice any noise, just quite a bit of vibration in 4th during accel or cruise.

No vibration at all in neutral or with the clutch engaged. No vibration during decel. Very slight vibration in the other gears that seems normal.

If the driveshaft was not straight or out of balance, I would expect to feel that in all gears.

The car is an ERA, so I would not expect driveline angel issues.

Is vibration in the shifter normal?

Grubby · #8 (**permalink**) 03-13-2011, 06:44 PM

I am using the same bellhousing with the spacer for use with a standard length input. Bell was dialed in to total run out of .004". Pressure plate is the same with a new clutch disk.

Rear suspension was changed at the same time to change gear ratio. I used stock ERA parts, but it is possible the pinion angel was changed some.

Eljaro · #9 (**permalink**) 03-13-2011, 06:45 PM

when I installed my TKO600 I had to enlarge the hole for the shifter in the transmission tunnel, because the shifter was touching it and transmitting vibrations. Maybe you should check that this is not your case also.

lal Naja · #10 (**permalink**) 03-13-2011, 06:59 PM

Could it be harmonics? Pretty wild if some how thare's a resonant frequency because of length of stick, or weight of stick. The same way a tuning fork will vibrate if exposed to the frequency that it is tuned for.

Tape some strips of lead roofing flashing, heavy solder wire, etc. to your stick and bind with some electrical tape and see if that changes anything.

Arthur

Rick Parker · #11 (**permalink**) 03-13-2011, 07:46 PM

I believe the cause of this is called "Gear Rollover" which causes the vibrations that you are experiencing. Generally an inherant design flaw. This is part oof the reason that the OEM ford shift handles are mounted with rubber grommets attaching them to the shifter control mechanism. Somtimes it can be influenced with different lubricants.

Grubby · #12 (**permalink**) 03-13-2011, 08:03 PM

It could be gear rollover. The trans as DexronIII in it for break in. Per the manual, I was planning to change to Syncromesh at 500 miles.

I wonder if the Syncromesh will calm the vibration.

John

elmariachi · #13 (**permalink**) 03-13-2011, 08:52 PM

My TKO exhibits quit a bit of slop in the shifter. If you can't wiggle it around a bit in fourth gear and hide from the vibration, I would say its a lot more than will be cured by changing to Synchromesh.

wolf k · #14 (**permalink**) 03-13-2011, 11:40 PM

Had same problem with shifter noise with a TKO, checked all the above suggestions, the only thing that cured it for me was to mount the shifter handle with the factory rubber bushings to the aftermarket shifter. Wolfgang

CobraEd · #15 (**permalink**) 03-15-2011, 08:56 AM

U joints ok ???

.

wrogers55 · #16 (**permalink**) 03-15-2011, 11:39 AM

You're not going to like this reply.

I had the same 4th gear vibration with my TKO600. Only 4th. I started with all the suggestions you have seen here, making sure no contact with the hole in the body, bell housing and all internals dialed in (what a pain), new TO bearing, new pilot bearing.....absolutely no change, exactly same level of vibration.

Took it all back down and really inspected everything. Found that the nose of the input shaft on the TKO was just a bit to long for my installation. It was pressing up against the crankshaft when it was all tightened up. The crank showed the witness marks and the nose of the input shaft on the transmission is actually pretty soft metal all considering and it showed the same evidence of rubbing, hitting, spinning up against the crank. The marks on the crank, inside the pilot bearing hole were actually larger than the input shaft diameter, meaning it was moving around and not spinning on its center all the time.

I didn't have the slight grinding going into reverse that is a symptom of this condition, but it was there all the same.

THIS IS NOT RECOMMENDED FOR THE LESS EXPERIENCED, SO PROCEED WITH CAUTION!!! After talking with Mike Forte and some nice guy from Australia who had the same problem, I took a 3" zip wheel on a small grinder and cut about a 1/16" off the nose of the input shaft. Taped it all up to protect everything, except the part I was cutting off. Takes a steady hand and some patience....and about 5 minutes. Dressed the cut off end up a bit with a fine file and emery paper and put the thing back together.

4th gear vibration completely gone, I mean completely. I mounted a Steeda Tri-Ax shifter I got from Brent and B2 Motorsports and the thing has been an absolute pleasure since.

I'm not saying this is your problem and it's a huge issue to pull all that stuff out and put it back in. But, that WAS my problem and had to be what was causing the vibration in the direct 1 to 1 gear. I changed nothing else, at least not intentionally.

Really, I hope it's not the cause of your issue and you find something simple. But the TKO600 can run as smooth as any trans in 4th, mine does now and I don't think it's a design flaw that is causing your vibration. Good luck in tracking it down and I would try all the simple stuff suggested first.....and hope...and pray.

elmariachi · #17 (**permalink**) 03-15-2011, 01:14 PM

There is a perception that this stuff should bolt up and fit out of the box and that's just not the case. Spacers, shafts, etc aside, nothing should be taken for granted. My TKO slid into place and bolted up but we used some yellow paint to confirm whether or not it was touching and it was. So we removed the input shaft and had it machined down 3/16" and beveled.

You are facing removing the tranny anyway to inspect the internals so first step after removal would be to measure from the rear BH mounting face into the backside of the seated pilot bushing or bearing, and compare that to the distance from the trans mounting face out to a perpendicular line across the shaft tip. You want the tip of the input shaft to be no deeper than flush with the back of the pilot bushing/bearing once its installed.

wolf k · #18 (**permalink**) 03-15-2011, 01:43 PM

Does the vibration/ noise go away if you apply pressure to the shifter lever? If it does, then it is probably some kind of harmonics, if it doesn't, then it is deeper as suggested.

Grubby · #19 (**permalink**) 03-15-2011, 06:14 PM

Guys,

Double checked the shifter is not touching the hole. No part of the trans is touching the frame or anything else except the mount. Eng mounts and trans mounts still tight. Driveline angels are; pinion = 0.9 deg up, trans = 0.5 deg up, driveshaft = 7.9 deg down. Driveshaft runout at the pinion end is .006" and the same in the middle. I couldn't get to the trans end to measure runout.

The vibration is not heard or felt; it is seen. The shifter moves back and forth about 1/4" and the speed is related to rpm. If I put my hand on the shifter I can calm it down some. This is in 4th gear only and only on accel or cruise. No shifter movement present on decel.

Wayne - did your shifter move as described above? Any movement on decel?

The U joints have no noticeable play. The car has 1000 miles so I don't expect a U joint problem. When I swapped yokes, I inspected half of the U joint that had to be removed. It looked like new and I reinstalled it with the new yoke. I did grease both joints on install.

The trans did slide all the way in without using the bolts to pull it in. That does not mean the input shaft did not bottom out.

I spoke with Kiesler tech support today and they suggested checking driveline angle and driveshaft run out.

I plan to call ERA and speak with Doug tommorrow and then decide on a plan of action.

John

Jerry Clayton · #20 (**permalink**) 03-15-2011, 06:48 PM

Are the angles you listed relative to the ground???if so---you have a drive line angle exceeding 8 degrees!!!and in a shaft that is only a foot or so long???