Toploader pops out of third and fourth

[Jac Mac]

Good to hear...ENJOY...... oh and you were not meant to try........ sounds like you have a lot in common with one of my kiwi clients...... he considers the trailer time from shop to track the 'run in' period!!

I will hang out for you to visit NZ, beer's better......

[DanEC]

Great investigation and help, and great outcome. That's what these forums are all about.

[MOTORHEAD]

Dan; ASSOLUTELY!!!!!
And the coolest part was the person that did the detective work was on the other side of the PLANET!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just happened to have a bare t/l case sitting around the he could take some measurements from, and as "they" say....."broke the case wide open" !!!!!

Thanks again to Mr Jac Mac !!!!
Ted

[DanEC]

Just as a footnote , as others have mentioned I would be wary of rubber boots when transmissions kick out of gear occassionally. Mine was rebuilt by Keith Craft and received a number of replacement internals in the process, but I've had it kick out of third a couple of times randomly. Could still be something weak in the transmission but I'm not convinced of it yet. I've noticed that when I put the stick in third gear the rubber boot pulls back on it quite a bit. I measured it and pushing it solidly into 3rd and releasing it, the shifter ball rebounds a good 1/2 inch from the boot tension alone. It doesn't matter if I pull the boot up or push it down. Then I removed the ring and boot and tried it and it rebounds not more than 1/8 inch on it's own.

Having read somewhere that the Sunbeam Tiger boot sold by Sunbeam Specialties, Inc is substantially thinner and more flexible than the usual rubber boot, I've called them up and ordered one. I'll post back after I receive it and give it a try. He said they have supplied quite a few of them to Kirkham for their cars so I figure that speaks highly of them. We will see.

[DanEC]

I received the rubber boot from Sunbeam Specialties and it's 100% better than what came with my car. Looks the same but the rubber is softer and thinner and much more pliable. I still get a bit of rebound when placing the stick in 3rd gear but not as much as before. No problems with kicking out of 3rd on a test drive - although since it only happened to me occassionally this may not be a full test. If you think you are having problems due to the stiff shifter boot, this is something to try.

[Eckerz01]

I don't know if this is relevant guys I have rebuilt a lot of top loaders and I do not believe they use a washer under the bolt.I don't think it a big issue except for a small amount pressure loss on the spring.

[Jac Mac]

Originally Posted by Eckerz01

I don't know if this is relevant guys I have rebuilt a lot of top loaders and I do not believe they use a washer under the bolt.I don't think it a big issue except for a small amount pressure loss on the spring.

Some do some don't, most jerico 4 spds seem to use an allen socket head cap screw that is cut/ground to the reqd length. If the trans had a washer and it is not fitted on reassembly it will increase the detent spring load slightly, or worst case if the wrong/longer bolt was fitted it may prevent selection of either 3rd or 4th altogether.

[DanEC]

I can't believe it's been over a year since I ordered my toploader shifter rubber boot from Sunbeam Specialties. Since installing it my transmission has not kicked out of 3rd gear once.

[steve meltzer]

My 4-speed toploader also pops of out gear as described by the OP, but now I can't even get it into 3rd or 4th. (Reverse and 1/2 are OK). The linkage is perfectly aligned/indexed. When I removed the bolt (see picture). The bolt takes a 9/16 wrench, but its diameter is 3/8, I think. At any rate, i removed this bolt, but there was no spring and now I'm not sure if I just need to adjust it, or, the spring is ??? Any thoughts here? Maybe the gearbox is really toast, but if I can fix the car without foolin' with a rebuilding of the toploader, that would be a good thing! The car only has about 2K miles on this Southern-built box. No hard miles, no track. thanx steve

[MOTORHEAD]

Steve: wrong bolt! The one for the 3/4 detent "bullit" and spring is on the drivers side of the trans case. don't remember if there's one for the 1st & 2nd gears.
If you can't get into 3rd or 4th, maybe the detent is jammed. Can you move the shift arms on the tranny with the linkage disconnected ?

[Jac Mac]

The bolt you removed is a travel limiting bolt that prevents the shifter from 'over reaching' on the gearbox internal elements which can cause damage to the internal shifter rails if left out for a long time and the shifter is used aggressively. Did you use the alignment pin when setting up the shifter rods?

Attached pic shows the detent cover bolt, this is the only detent that is outside box, all others are internal. From your description check this bolt is tight first, if that's OK remove and check the spring is correct length and or not damaged as per my earlier posts for motorhead. If everything is OK there and the shifter assy is operating correctly then the next option is the possibility that the small hex set screws that locate the shifter forks on the internal rails are not tight. Think you will find issue is shifter alignment though.
What is the 'white plastic' looking rod hanging down in your pic behind the 3/4 shifter lever. I also enlarged your pic of the shifter assy, It looks like you have the basic shifter rods quite likely with lots of bends like the pic above.... shift quality can be greatly improved by using straighter shifter rods and rod ends for accuracy... the setup you have at present 'looks' to have enough free play to allow misalignment to occur in the shifter assy which would cause problems moving across the neutral gate from 3-4 and 1-2 positions.... PS, the pic I used is NOT a good example.. too many bends

To adjust that rear stop bolt you had removed......Screw bolt with locknut loose on threads back in a couple of turns Put shifter in third gear, tighten bolt in until it just contacts the lever in shifter unit ( you will see the 3-4 shifter linkage start to move out of third gear ), back the bolt out again by one whole turn then tighten the lock nut. There should be a similar bolt on the front face of the shifter, apply the same procedure to it with the shifter in fourth gear.

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by DanEC

I've noticed that when I put the stick in third gear the rubber boot pulls back on it quite a bit.

I remember seeing a Cobra at a show once and noticed that he had a nice black leather shifter boot with just a ring at the top sewed into the leather, so the boot would just slide up and down the shaft and not cause any "pulling" by the boot, if that makes sense. I do remember him saying that he put it in for same problem mentioned above by DanEC. I think he got it here, but I may be wrong.

Shift boot store - RedlineGoods leather shift boots

[steve meltzer]

Thanx so much for all the input, guys. The "little white thing" is the alignment tool, showing that the shifter arms are indexed correctly, trans in neutral. First off, how do I set the limiting bolt, now that I've fooled around with it?. I'll check the the other things as well, and let you know. Great help! thanx again. steve

[Jac Mac]

Originally Posted by steve meltzer

Thanx so much for all the input, guys. The "little white thing" is the alignment tool, showing that the shifter arms are indexed correctly, trans in neutral. First off, how do I set the limiting bolt, now that I've fooled around with it?. I'll check the the other things as well, and let you know. Great help! thanx again. steve

Added info for stop bolts in post #31 above. That white alignment rod/pin, did you have it thru all three shifter arms and housing side plates? silly Q I know, but I cant see from where I'm at!

[steve meltzer]

Stupid me, I didn't read far enough to read about the adjustment of the limiter bolt. I got that now. Pulled that detente bolt and the spring looks excellent and the measurements are dead nuts, but I've run out of time today. Where do you find straighter shifter rods? Also two other stupid, novice questions (it's pretty clear that I'm no mechanic, only a mechanic wannabe) 1) What's IIRC stand for? and B) What is the technical term for the tabs/tangs bolted to the outside of the top loader to which the rods are attached? (are those what you're calling the "shifter forks"?

Yes, the white rod is through all three plates and shifter rods, shifter in neutral.

thanx again. steve

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by steve meltzer

Stupid me, I didn't read far enough to read about the adjustment of the limiter bolt. I got that now. Pulled that detente bolt and the spring looks excellent and the measurements are dead nuts, but I've run out of time today. Where do you find straighter shifter rods? Also two other stupid, novice questions (it's pretty clear that I'm no mechanic, only a mechanic wannabe) 1) What's IIRC stand for? and B) What is the technical term for the tabs/tangs bolted to the outside of the top loader to which the rods are attached? (are those what you're calling the "shifter forks"?

Yes, the white rod is through all three plates and shifter rods, shifter in neutral.

thanx again. steve

I noticed that you are in TX. You might want to check in with David Kee Toploaders. That's what he does...

David Kee Toploader Transmissions, Inc.

[Jac Mac]

1.IIRC... If I Remember Correctly....B. Those are the shifter arms, the forks are inside and fit in grooves machined in the synchro hubs and the reverse gear idler.

[steve meltzer]

thanx for the gentle schooling. David Kee is about 3-4 hrs away, in San Antonio. If I had a trailer and the time, I could take him the car. It's on my mind, however thanx. s

[steve meltzer]

OK, finally got the tranny out...as every Kirkham owner knows, this is a PITA X 10! Bad 3rd gear and bad 3rd and 4th synchros. thanx again. steve

[Bernica]

Did you pull the trans tunnel? Then everything is right there. Sorry for your troubles. David will fix you up...