Toploader pops out of third and fourth

MOTORHEAD · #1 (**permalink**) 08-13-2014, 06:39 PM

Doesn't do it in normal city driving, only when I get "on" it and accelerate at higher power, then back off, out of gear she pops ! I've seen this mentioned here before, but search in "toploader" forum produces nothing.
Anyone have the fix?

mickmate · #2 (**permalink**) 08-13-2014, 06:54 PM

Make sure your shifter is set with alignment pin and is getting full throw. That's just a hopeful check, I found it was bad sychro rings with the same symptoms.

gjcomb · #3 (**permalink**) 08-13-2014, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickmate

Make sure your shifter is set with alignment pin and is getting full throw. That's just a hopeful check, I found it was bad sychro rings with the same symptoms.

I agree with MickMate - you might have bad synchro rings...saw that same symptom in my Toploader...George

Jac Mac · #4 (**permalink**) 08-13-2014, 08:01 PM

Usually assuming shifter is correctly indexed it will be worn input or mainshaft bearings allowing too much fore/aft movement ( this is induced by the gear teeth helix). Once they have jumped out of gear a number of times the flanks of the engagement dogs/teeth start to form a 'track' on the 'back taper' and they need refaced or replaced to prevent it. One possible 'fix' before you remove the trans is to remove the 9/16" bolt between the 3/4 & Rev shifter boss's on the main trans housing and pull the detent spring out, stretch that approx. 1/8" and refit, You should note a slight increase in the effort to engage 3/4 gears and this 'MIGHT' be enough to deter the problem, but only if the engagement dogs/bearings are in good shape.

MOTORHEAD · #5 (**permalink**) 08-13-2014, 08:21 PM

Thanks for the info guys, I'll check the travel and the detent spring.
Anyone know of a good toploader shop in fl.??

blykins · #6 (**permalink**) 08-14-2014, 03:55 AM

Astro Performance in Tavares.

jkg2101 · #7 (**permalink**) 08-14-2014, 05:28 AM

not sure if this is relevant for this case, but ...
with a well used toploader, it is easy to push the shift lever out of gear as you described. I have found in several mustangs over the years, that the repro shift boots are very firm rubber, and they will push it out of gear. on my 69 mustang, I switched to a leather boot and problem disappeared. that was 10 years ago, and I still have the car. the rubber shift boots are not soft like they used to be.

changing the shift boot is a lot easier than pulling the trans...

MOTORHEAD · #8 (**permalink**) 08-14-2014, 06:07 AM

Jac Mac: Thanks for the input, however I don't speak "transmission", so that's over my head !Sounds like you are very familiar with these things, too bad you're not within driving range, or I'd bring it to you !

Brent: thanks for the reference, right next to Mt Dora, one of my most favorite Fl. places, and only a couple of hours drive !

jkg : did that a year ago and the problem seemed to go away. Returned with more recent aggressive driving while tuning carb.

DanEC · #9 (**permalink**) 08-14-2014, 11:25 AM

Besides the rubber boot, a longer shot possibility is that the shifter is centered in the chrome ring over too far to the right and interference between the ring and shift lever is preventing it from going all the way into gear. Kind of unlikely that it would be blocking both 3rd and 4th throws however. The height of my transmission tunnel above the toploader transmission makes the shifter pattern pretty tight within the chrome ring. I had to do some careful fitting to avoid interference.

MOTORHEAD · #10 (**permalink**) 08-14-2014, 03:44 PM

Dan: thanks, no clearance issues w/cutout or ring.

Mac Jac: Detent spring is 3/8" long, and has been cut at one end. Also there was a flat washer under the bolt head. Didn't notice any spring pressure at all when removing bolt.

Jac Mac · #11 (**permalink**) 08-15-2014, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOTORHEAD

Dan: thanks, no clearance issues w/cutout or ring.

Mac Jac: Detent spring is 3/8" long, and has been cut at one end. Also there was a flat washer under the bolt head. Didn't notice any spring pressure at all when removing bolt.

Should be slightly longer than that IIRC and both ends usually look like the end coils have been ground flat& square, if you can wait a few hours til tomorrow morning -my time- I will get a definite spring length measurement for you, that bolt/washer should contact the spring at least 1/8" before the washer is contacted by the bolt head ( when in the neutral or selected 3/4 gear positions ), have you checked to ensure that the spring has not broken and left a coil or two in the drilled hole of trans case, don't worry you cannot lose anything by poking a small screwdriver in the hole to try and extract any broken pieces, with the spring removed there should only be the detent still in there. Dont try to use a longer bolt with that possibly broken spring as it might coil bind and prevent movement of that 3/4 fork altogether.

MOTORHEAD · #12 (**permalink**) 08-15-2014, 07:06 AM

Jac: it definitely been cut, wire end smashed to a sharp point. Uncut end has coils more tightly wound and end is flat.

Ted

Jac Mac · #13 (**permalink**) 08-15-2014, 03:36 PM

Spring should be 0.900" long -free length.
~0.290" dia, and ~0.600" long compressed.

Check with a small mirror/torch if possible to ensure that the other portion of the spring is not still in the hole. When new replacement spring is fitted it should be approx. 1/8" (0.125") below the surface of trans case prior to refitting the 9/16 bolt ( eg the bolt should contact the spring 2 or 3 turns before it is tight. DO NOT try to use a spring that has a longer compressed length as it will prevent gear engagement.

Three other points:
1. Try modifying your driving style- use the throttle to accelerate & the brakes to slow down, using engine braking with that big stroker combo puts a lot of reverse loads into the system and don't help in this regard.
2. IF that spring has been cut prior to trans assembly it raise's a red flag as to the quality of work & care went into its build.
3. If you know someone who works with ford top loaders ( both 4 and 3 speeds have them-3 in the 4 spd & 2 in the 3spd) try them for a spring, or IIRC you can get a ''small parts kit'' from David Kee trans, Summit etc might also sell these. BTW the flat washer should be under the bolt head as you describe, its a soft metal sealing washer.

Igofastr · #14 (**permalink**) 08-15-2014, 05:15 PM

Agree with what has been said...but, the problem is very likely the synchros. Mine did the same when the first gear synchro went.

I used to drive an old Porsche as a college student. I couldn't afford to rebuild the trany at the time, so I used to have to drive around holding it in first gear when the synchro went. AH, those were the days.

MOTORHEAD · #15 (**permalink**) 08-19-2014, 05:01 PM

Jac Mac: thanks for the specs. I put the detent spring back in and left the washer off, and drove it. This gave a little tension just before the bolt head seated. I almost couldn't get it into 3rd or 4th. Pushed harder and got the gears, but it felt like I was shoving rocks into the shifter, very rough !!! Put it on the hoist today, took out the bolt and spring and after much faniggiling, extracted the double ended "bullet". nothing else in there. Operation went from normal shifting effort to almost impossible to shift, then only difference was I removed the washer under the bolt head, which is pretty thick and not at all soft.
The "cut" spring measures .377" in length, and .290" dia. Wire dia. = .048", and very stiff.
"bullet" length = .456".

Jac Mac · #16 (**permalink**) 08-19-2014, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOTORHEAD

Jac Mac: thanks for the specs. I put the detent spring back in and left the washer off, and drove it. This gave a little tension just before the bolt head seated. I almost couldn't get it into 3rd or 4th. Pushed harder and got the gears, but it felt like I was shoving rocks into the shifter, very rough !!! Put it on the hoist today, took out the bolt and spring and after much faniggiling, extracted the double ended "bullet". nothing else in there. Operation went from normal shifting effort to almost impossible to shift, then only difference was I removed the washer under the bolt head, which is pretty thick and not at all soft.
The "cut" spring measures .377" in length, and .290" dia. Wire dia. = .048", and very stiff.
"bullet" length = .456".

Just wont work with that spring @ 0.377", has to be longer to have enough usable compression. How long is the thread length on the bolt, should be 0.350" without the washer, so ~0.310" with the washer. The 'bullet or detent' has to move ~0.180" during the shifting process so using that 'cut' spring wont help you, and leaving it out wont help either as the detents are required to line up the interlocks and allow the other gears to be selected.
David Kee Toploaders part # for the spring is **DK 296 28 **, cost $3.00 in 2009, allow for inflation He probably has the correct bolt as well if the one you have is too long, but you should be able to cut it down to those measurements I have given if that's the case.

MOTORHEAD · #17 (**permalink**) 08-19-2014, 06:32 PM

Jac: yeah, that's the bolt I have. Hole depth is approx 1.15", so with the bullet at .456", it would use the short spring, the 296 28 you listed.
What bothers me is why did putting a little tension on the cut spring that was in the tranny cause the shifting to be so difficult ? The proper spring is going to be slightly longer !
Ted

Jac Mac · #18 (**permalink**) 08-19-2014, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOTORHEAD

Jac: yeah, that's the bolt I have. Hole depth is approx 1.15", so with the bullet at .456", it would use the short spring, the 296 28 you listed.
What bothers me is why did putting a little tension on the cut spring that was in the tranny cause the shifting to be so difficult ? The proper spring is going to be slightly longer !
Ted

[b]Hi Ted, At a guess I think they have stuck a second detent ( bullet) in that hole, just measured a Top Loader case I have here & its ~ 1.500" deep ( 0.350" deeper than your measurement of 1.150", add the 0.060 of the flat of the shifter rail to that for 1.560" and we have a difference of 0.400". If this is so you will need a pin magnet approx. 0.250" dia to hopefully pull it out, or if you can determine its a 'detent/bullet' visually then all you should have to do is fit the new spring & bolt/washer be good to go.

****** Eureka***, just had a thought, went out to shop, fitted shifter rail & detent to that empty case & measured the depth*** 1.150"...so just as I guessed, they had fitted TWO detents... leave that one there ( put the spare in your 'things that annoyed you' cupboard), get the new spring and fit your bolt washer & you should be good to go.... treat the trans gently for a while and try to avoid those engine brake situations and hopefully all will be fine.

Afterthought... Wonder if the original builder has left 'that spare' detent out of another location in the trans---there are five in total---- only ways to tell is to 'feel' for slight resistance as you initiate each gear selection or strip the trans down, however I would still road test it with the 'new' spring prior to any teardown to ensure that the jump out of gear problem is fixed first.

MOTORHEAD · #19 (**permalink**) 08-19-2014, 08:44 PM

Jac: I hope that's what the problem is. I'll check that out tomorrow am.
Thanks,

Ted

MOTORHEAD · #20 (**permalink**) 08-20-2014, 07:06 PM

DING DING DING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WE HAVE A WINNER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
mr Jac Mac, YOU DA MAN!!!
The mystery of the outta gear poppin' double-detent bullet toploader has been solved !!!
Indeed, someone had stuck in an extra bullet, and then cut the spring to compensate (ignoring the red flag that was hoisted by the spring hanging out of the hole)
I couldn't get the original one out, so just added a spring Slightly smaller, but slightly longer, and went out for a drive.
PERFECTION ! never shifted smoother and did not pop out of gear, even when I tried !!!
If you ever make it to Florida, dinner and drinks are on me.! If I ever make it to NZ, same deal.

Thanks a bunch,
Ted