Rear main vs tranny input seal leak

[Jac Mac]

Had a look at your short video, Is the old alloy bell housing cracked in the area of the pivot for release fork? if so the flexing that would result would cause the g/box front seal to leak.
Any sign of oil leakage up around back of intake manifold in valley area?

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by Jac Mac

Had a look at your short video, Is the old alloy bell housing cracked in the area of the pivot for release fork? if so the flexing that would result would cause the g/box front seal to leak.
Any sign of oil leakage up around back of intake manifold in valley area?

Well spotted Jac.

There certainly appears to be a crack there.

[RICK LAKE]

Texasdoc Tom before we get crazy, buy a dye kit from the auto store , clean and reassembly the motor and trans and run it. The dye leak will show you where it's coming from. This will take all the guessing out of the location and how to fix the leak. Kits about 40.00 bucks. Pour into the motor and let run or drive for 10-15 minutes. put back on stanks and check with light and glasses. Disassembly and repair. Good luck. If you find nothing than retest the trans with the same dye and test. You could even have a crack in the block and not see it or porosity. Hope not for either. Does the back of this block have allen head plugs for the oil gallery hole and are they sealed with a sealer? More picture would help too. Rick L.

[Texasdoc]

I checked the old bell housing. There is no crack. I see what you are looking at - it appears to be a casting ridge - a slight irregularity on the surface. If you follow it all the way to the machined mounting surface = it is only on the surface. Not a crack.

I didn't want to have to reinstall, re-remove, repair, reinstall again. Oh well. I'm just going to put the Quicktime housing on (centered), the new TKO600, then start the engine. Hopefully, no leaks. If it starts, I'll tear it all down again.

[RICK LAKE]

TexasDoc Tom Put dye in the motor anyway before driving it. IF the motor is leaking you will locate the place. If the trans is leaking, you will have that answer too. no dye in the leak and know it's the trans. Just a thought. Rick L.

[CHANMADD]

Welll.......all the tranny oil is in the bellhousing........I guess it must be engine oil leaking
huh.....!

[RICK LAKE]

Texas DOC Tom what color is the oil in the bell housing?? Brown or Red. I believe that T series trannies all take ATF fluid which is red. If the fluid is brown, It could be burnt ATF,or motor oil . I look at a 3 second video and the oil looks brown, yes, no ???? Is the oil thick like motor oil of thin like ATF? Rick L.
Ps I have seen motors leak oil from the front of the motor to the back along the oil pan. and without the dye you would have figured that the rear main was the problem. Same applies for the plugs in the back of th motor block for the oil passages. No sealer and some plugs leak. Spray is everywhere but on the flywheel and clutch. There is a lot of air blowing around inside that bellhousing. Enough to suck in HTOBearing lines and rub them through on the pressure plate.

[Texasdoc]

The back of the motor has plugs. I first bought some from Summit. The machinist recommended I not install those as they were too short. He recommended some longer/taller plugs that were supposed to seal better due to more contact area with the block. They were installed by the machine shop. I can see the sealant. The machine shop fluxed the block and said there were no cracks. I think what I'm seeing around the plugs is just spray from the turbulence inside the bell housing. I'll check again the front/back of the intake, valve covers, etc. I've looked before, but haven't seen anything. I don't want to tear into the oil pan/RMS again if I don't have to.

The oil is a brownish color. BUT, I had Valvoline MTF synchromesh in there which is brown. I don't remember who told me to put that in there, but that's what it was. So that doesn't help. If I had ATF in there, I would know if it was the transmission (red) or motor (brown) that was leaking.

Anyway, I will put ATF in the new TKO600 after install. I will put dye in the motor oil. The break in procedure for the TKO is to put ATF in for the break in period (15 minutes, rowing thru the gears), drive 500 miles, then drain and put in GM Synchromesh.

I found this here on ClubCobra:

Put 3qt of good quality ATF (Auto Transmission Fluid) (Dexron) into the transmission. Pour in through shifter mount, or through one of the top plates. You can use the fill plug on the side of the transmission also (afterall, that's what it's for!). It's just easier to pour it in from the top if you can.
Put car on jacks, run the transmission up and down through all gears repeatedly for 15 minutes. This will allow the gears to break in properly (yes, with the engine running) After 500-700 miles, drain the ATF, and put in 3qt of the GM Synchromesh fluid, the part number is 12345349.

Does anyone recommend a different procedure/fluid? I'm going to center the quicktime bell housing with a dial gauge, install the tranny, run the break in procedure for 15 minutes, then shut it down and look for leaks. If it leaks red, new tranny is leaking. If it leaks brown/dye, time for another new RMS. I'll then drive it for 500 miles and switch to GM Synchromesh. Also considering a MGW shifter. I had one on the T5 and loved it. Anyone have one on a TKO?

Thanks for everyone's help! I wanted to spend the day on the track at TCC again this year (my favorite thing to do all year in the cobra) but that ain't happening... I'm just going to take my time and do it right. I'll just be a passenger at TCC this year.

[RICK LAKE]

Texasdoc Tom Call Tremac and ask thm or the guys who sell trannies here for the correct way to breakin and maintain the trans. You don't want to VOID the warrantty if there is a machining problem. Fill the trans any way you like as long as you don't over fill it and cause leaks from the front or rear seals.
Find it hard to believe that with all the GREAT people in TEXAS someone wouldn't give you a hand with assembling the car. A couple of evenings, beer and a couple of steaks, they will be banging on the door.
Have been told that Quicktime belhousings are very centered on the back of motors ad require little to no adjustment of the pins to center.
Here a side note, over the years of building motors have found that some crankshafts have no grooves where the RMS is and some do. Doesn't matter if the motor calls for a rope seal or plastic one. I tryed a couple of times to sealup the rearmain seal area on the shelby block. After 10-20 heat cycles the leak returned. It's small, just a couple of drops. It has not kept me off the track or failed inspection. The motor being an aluminum block has a larger exspansion ratio than cast iron. The oil have no effected my twin disc clutch setup. I do run 1 quart of oil more than called for and this didn't change the leaking issue. Ran 7 to start and leaked, then ran 8 and still does the same.
Put the car back togeather, break in the trans and go drive or trailer it to the track and enjoy it Passenger is just not the same thing. Even bring the car and not track it and cruise for chicks?? I'm sure you are married with children, or girlfriend. Just a thought. Rick L.

[Texasdoc]

I called Tremec today. They said not to use the ATF - just use Synchromesh. They said there is no break in procedure. Just put in the fluid and drive. Change the fluid at 500 miles if I was concerned about it, or 30,000 miles if I'm not worried about it.

[Texasdoc]

I'm trying to get this back together. Always a few snags.

1st - the mechanical sender from the T5 (the one with the red gear on it) won't fit into the hole on the drivers side of the TKO. I was hoping it would just slide in. Nope. Uh-uh. Can't do that.

Ok, use the electric sender. Wait - the TKO didn't come with the other side of the pigtail that wires plugs in the the transmission and then connects to the wiring from my speedo. Gotta find a pigtail. Looks like I need THIS ONE. Can't get it tomorrow from them. Not sure if I can get it local. Gotta make sure I have a Ford TKO. The GM TKO has a different plug. Not sure why the mechanical speed sender won't fit. Not sure if there is a local mechanical sender that will fit.

EDIT: O'Reilly has one that looks like it will fit. Hopefully this sorts out problem #1. Confirmed it is a FORD TKO - part TCET5008

2nd Problem - The TKO's yoke is bigger than the T5's yoke. I pressed out the u-joint caps, removed the old yoke, and tried to install the new yoke.. Wait, I need the bigger u-joint to fit the new yoke. But the smaller u-joint fits the driveshaft. Let's see... they make a 1310 to 1330 conversion u-joint. Moog part 353. Not in stock anywhere. Summit can't get me one until Friday.... O'reilly can get one but not until 3pm tomorrow. Got to get it (anyone heard of Master Pro u-joints? Any good? Probably not great at $8 each.)

Current drive shaft has about 1/8 inch between the rubber seal and the yoke head. Not much room for sliding when the suspension is compressed. I could take the driveshaft down to the local gear and axle shop. See if they would shorten the driveshaft by 1/2 inch and install the new u-joint. I'm sure they "could". Question is "would" they do it on the spot, and for what price.

Then see if I could get the clutch functional. The fork is at a slightly different angle and so I need to rework the slave cylinder mounting bracket. Also, the Quicktime is different than the stock housing in this area. May not pull straight.

Then start it and hope it doesn't leak from the RMS......

It's going to be a long day tomorrow.

[RICK LAKE]

Texasodc IS your name Tom?
Quick fix problems, Driveshaft Get one made quick with the correct heavyduty u joints and correct length. keep the spare one now for the other trans setup. spareparts for now, sell it later as a kit.
If that drive shaft is that long you can damage the trans, NOT GOOD. Call the driveshaft shop, Give them all the info, you should have one UPS or Fedex in the morning.
IF the plug is for the speedo, If you can get this fixed Great, If not who cares about a speedo when on the track. You are watching the guys around you, water temp and oil pressure, THAT's it. Plug the hole with an expandable coolant plug for now. Quick fix will work. They use them in motor blocks and last for years.
If the slave cylinder is a little off line, slot it, add washers, what ever. This is a temp repair for the weekend. Just want the clutch to work. If you have a syncro trans, Who uses th clutch after 1st gear unless down shifting hard for braking.
Forget about who makes the "U" joints, you are just looking for some EASY track time. They are all made in China now. Who cares whos name is on the box.
At the track add 1 extra quart of oil to prevent straving the motor on "G" turns and the FE having poor return ports from the heads. It might leak a little. As long as you don't leave a blue smoke trail on the track, you are ok. When you get home, drain a the oil and refill with the correct amount for your system. If oil is under the car, jack up and degrease it out by the street and wash down good or use a low pressure powerwasher. Let dry, wipe down if you are crazy and road test to clean surfaces of the brakes and rotors.
Worry about the other problems next week with the stress level down and not under the gun with no time to spare. Do go through the car and check every nut, bolt, safety wire, cotter pin for being on tight and correctly installed. Good luck, Have some fun. DRive smart and come home in one piece, that's you and the car. Side note, tell the other half that the event was just OK. Wipe that silly smile off your face when you do this or you will be grounded with out her. Rick L.

[Texasdoc]

Thanks, Rick. Yes, my name is Tom.

The track is out for sure. I'm just trying to make the rally now. Thanks for all your help. I'm going to the drive shaft shop today, be there when they open, and see if they can fix the drive shaft.

I found the electrical plug for the Speedo at O'Reilly. Going to patch the clutch in place and hopefully get her going.

Thanks again, Tom

[DanEC]

I've had a couple Corvette driveshafts built and balanced using the existing yokes (essentially re-tubed) and it was a relatively inexpensive project - around $120 each. Even though that was about 15 years ago, since you will just need one end cut off, tube shortened and re-welded I would not think it would be any more than around this price.

[Texasdoc]

Got the drive shaft shortened. $125. Now gotta finish clutch. Three trips to ACE so far today. Gotta bleed the slave cylinder - After the son's soccer game, of course.

[Texasdoc]

No luck. Got it all back together. Let it run for a few minutes. No oil leaks. Great. Went and filled up with gas, then back home and noted quite a bit of oil. Same place - between bell housing and engine plate. So it definately has something to do with being hot.

I had put the dye in so I looked and found oil at the front of the bell housing, back of the oil pan, along the sides of the oil pan, the oil pan cork gasket in the front was stained yellow, the top of the timing cover gasket was wet with oil, there was some oil pooled in the valleys on the top of the timing cover, and oil at the base of the distributor.

There was no oil on the china walls - front or rear. No oil leaks out of the cylinder heads, valve covers, or intake that I could find. I DID notice that the oil dipstick had popped out.

I'm thinking this may be a crankcase pressure issue, although I'm not sure why. I have a new PCV, plumbed directly into the port on the base of the throttle body. A filtered breather on the other valve cover. The PCV valve rattles when shaken, and I can suck air thru it when disconnected.

So I took everything off the valve covers, plugged the PCV port on the throttle body, and started the car. After about 7-8 minutes, it started dripping oil again at the bottom of the bell housing. I didn't run it much longer to see if it was better or worse without the PCV system installed. I did notice some steam/oil vapor/mist coming up out of both valve covers when the engine was hot.

The engine has less than 200 miles on it. I assembled it myself. I double checked all rings when installing. Not upside down. I checked the gaps on all the top and middle rings for every piston.

I wanted to try a different PCV valve. There are lots of people complaining about "which one do I use for my engine" but absolutely ZERO answers to these questions. About 50% of them are labeled with an A thru F, but nobody knows (or nobody is saying) what those codes mean. Probably the flow rate and spring strength but again, there is no chart that says if you have this size engine with this much vacuum at idle, use this PCV valve. :frustrated: So, even if I switch to a double breather setup, deleting the PCV system, I will still have a leak.

I'm going to do a compression test, then replace the oil pan gasket. I don't want to replace the timing cover gasket. It is wet, but there is no oil dripping from the front of the engine. This may just be a leak from the pressure. I don't want to replce the RMS again (just did that) but if I already have the oil pan off, its not a ton more work. (Can I do it without removing the trans and bellhousing?)

Just a thought: could it be the high volume oil pump? On the last motor, I had a normal volume pump. If the high volume pump is pushing more oil up to the heads, filling up the oil passages that drain the heads, maybe the crankcase pressure cannot escape thru the valve covers, and build up, leaking past the RMS, oil pan, dipstick, etc. Doesn't seem likely since lots of people use HV pumps without the problem.

[Gaz64]

I'd say compression test, a leak down test to isolate the offending cylinder/s.

Then engine out.

Does the honing crosshatch RA suit the rings you have used?

I prefer to have the crankcase breath from the valley or the crankcase via a baffle plate which allows the heads to drain more easily. High blow-by makes it difficult for the heads to drain back.

[Texasdoc]

I can do the compression test. Don't have a leak down tester. Need to scan Youtube to figure out how to do that. Need to figure out what gauge to get. Harbor Freight is local but everything I get from them is junk.

I told my machine shop what rings I was using (Moly). He did the bore and hone.

I'm not sure how to vent the crankcase from the valley. Don't know what a baffle plate is.

[Jac Mac]

Two things, you mentioned the dip stick had popped out... while this could indicate excess blow by, it sometimes occurs when the dip stick hits a pan baffle plate, in turn if you read the oil level from a dip stick that is being deflected internally by a baffle it can give a crook over full oil level and result in you filling the pan above the optimum level, if your stroker crank is dipping into the oil creating excessive windage you will experience more oil leaks and pressurisation.
Other thing I would try is a vented coke bottle & larger plastic tube to the PCV grommet on the rocker cover ( NO PCV ) and a short drive to see how much oil gets pushed into the bottle

[Texasdoc]

Before I installed the pan (when it was new) I set it on the ground, measured 7 quarts of water, and poured it into the pan. Then I set the dipstick level.

Also, when I last changed the oil, I drained the pan then poured in 7 quarts. This was pretty near the "full" mark I created.

Is this an incorrect way to set the oil level?