Converting to Hydraulic TO bearing

[Janus]

Hi Guys,

I am currently looking to convert to a hydraulic TO bearing arrangement. What I have is:
Ford FE motor with original toploader bellhousing
T5 Tranny with 3/4" spacer/adapter plate
11" Diaphragm clutch.

Which manufacturer have a good product with reaily available parts? I have seen Howe, Tilton and McLeod bearings available.
What specifications need the master cylinder at the pedal be?

What price range are we looking at?

What is the disadvantages of going hydraulic? (some guys indicate that these bearings start to leak withing a year or two?!)

Cheers
Janus

[BB427]

I have a Mcleod and I am very happy with it. It was easy to install, no adjustment needed, and easy to bleed. You give them your mesurements and they build it and ship it in a couple of days. I was told not to let it sit for long periods of time without being used so even in the dead of winter I go out in the garage and pump the pedal 4-5 times every couple of weeks. As far as the leaking in a couple of years, I have not had it that long but I will tell you that when you recieve it from Mcleod it comes with a complete set of extra 0-rings. ( tells you something)
I have a 3/4" Wilwood master cylinder and it works fine.
Cost of the bearing is about 350.00 if memory serves me.
I would use hard line from the cylinder to the hook-up lines for the bearing, braided lines swell and make the clutch act funny.

Good luck.

[Charlie]

I recommend the Tilton unit. It is more expensive, but in my opinion, the design is better. It uses a single flanged seal which slides and pushes against the piston, while the McLeod uses several stationary o-rings and a screwed-on back shell. I apparently overextended my McLeod unit and tension-failed several screws on the shell and extruded the o-rings. The McLeod design has an internally flanged piston which establishes a definite limit to its travel. I'm not sure what damage would have occured if I had overextended a Tilton instead. Possibly, the piston would just pop out (it is not flanged) and require reassembly with a new seal. But more likely, the piston would get cocked in the bore of the bearing and damage the housing. Hopefully, I will never find out. I don't blame McLeod for my stupidity, but I still believe the sliding seal arrangement of the Tilton is more reliable than the stationary o-rings on the McLeod. The sliding seal will expand (from hydraulic pressure) as it wears while the o-ring can't expand as it wears. The McLeod recommended a 3/4" master cylinder and the Tilton recommends a 7/8" master cylinder (at least for my application).
Beautifully smooth clutch action with this hydraulic unit. Best feeling clutch I ever had!

[Mr.Fixit]

I recommend a hydraulic TO bearing as a last resort. They are expensive, need frequent rebuilding, all service requires the removal of the tranny, and need a pedal stop most of the time. I prefer a hydraulic slave cyl pushing / pulling on a clutch fork. Cheaper and easier to service.

[Cracker]

I converted my system to a McLeod unit last fall and would do the same again in a heartbeat. Precise measurements are needed to protect yourself from "over-extending" the piston but once done it is so nice NOT dealing with a mechanical linkage. Another benefit - at least with the McLeod is is is self adjusting for the life of the clutch providing you originally measured correctly. It is expensive but then again what isn't with an FE. Best of luck!

Cracker

[Charlie]

I decided to go with my current setup as a result of my non-standard tranny/bellhousing which was really designed for a cable actuation. The throwout arm pivot was on the wrong side! At the time, it just seemed easier to go with the hydraulic throwout setup than try to weld in a new pivot and adapt some kind of external system. Besides, I figured they are using them in many of the new cars with great success, so why not. But of course, after my catastrophic failure, I was wishing I had gone with the external unit. I couldn't agree with you more Mr. Fixit, the external system is far easier to maintain when something goes wrong. The hydraulic throwout bearing has the advantage of being much lighter and in my opinion . . . much smoother. So I decided to give it another chance before going back to the old tried-and-true method.

[rbray]

Ok , here is a dumb question.
What is the throwout arm pivot? Is it the threaded hole inside the bolt circle that the transmission attaches to? I have a lakewood housing and the above mentioned threaded hole is on the passengers side.
thanks,
Roger

[Jack21]

Would agree with Mr. Fixits' recommendation of using slave cylinder instead of hydraulic TO bearing.

That being said, would invest engineering/re-engineering thought and $$$ to converting to cable pull clutch like late Mustangs using stronger and virtually frictionless aftermarket components.

[Mr.Fixit]

On small blocks. the ball-pivot screws into a threaded hole that is on the passenger's side of the bellhousing, just near enough to the input shaft to necessitate tranny removal to see. It is adjustable on scattershields and is held into adjustement with a locknut. On big blocks, the pivot can be found on the driver's side. That type is not a ball stud, but a flat fulcrum.

[decooney]

Hey Janus,

IMHO, the answer is just NO.

If you must, I have an expensive Tilton, with lines sitting in the oringinal box that I can sell you for $50. I paid $350+ for the piece of crap and it left me stranded twice with a blown seal on my last car; with the correct adjustment procedure used. Before that I had a RAM hydraulic throwout used on some older Nascars as i was told. It actually worked better. When they work, they work well, when they don't, it's time to pull the trasmission.

I say go the external route and save yourself the headaches.

Just my .02 cents, some are still praising the internals, I don't.

[BlueRooster]

I have to pull the tranny this week for this very reason...this o-ring mess. Go with the external.

Dane

[Charlie]

decooney,
You don't give me a warm feeling for the reliability of my new expensive Tilton unit. But I will reserve judgement until mine blows out on me at some well-timed moment. I hope I have better luck than you did. Keep hope alive!!!!!
Charlie

[decooney]

Hey Charlie,

ya never know, maybe they fixed the problem by now. That was two years ago for me. It's hard to imagine they would keep selling them if there were problems. The main issue that I learned about was running the Tilton Hydraulic Throwout Bearing setup with a diaphram pressure plate vs. a 3-finger type. Sometimes you could overdrive the Tilton on a diaphram pp if you are not careful and don't have the clearance adjusted correctly. The 3-finger pressure plates required less travel to engage, so the seal would not pop out. I complained to Tilton, and they sort of shrugged me off... so i finally gave up. I had my trans in/out 3 times, and my friend tried it twice too. Maybe it will be ok for you. If it goes, just get the external setup. Good Luck.

[Janus]

Thanks for the feedback!

Should I decide to go with the external arrangement, what would one need to get and modify?

Does one need to change the fulcrum point for the clutch fork? I am using a SCJ bellhousing and fork with a 3/4" adapter spacer.

Does the fork need some shortening, mods? The piece of spring steel, riveted to the fork, has the end piece missing. Can you get these separate? A new fork a better alternative? Who sells them?

You'll need to fabricate some bracket to accommodate the external cylinder. Anything special here?

What cylinder combinations work well? Any suggestions?

Cheers

[Mr.Fixit]

I put together external slave setups using a factory stock fork and TO bearing, a 6" long piece of 2" 90 degree steel channel to make a bracket (cut drilled and ground in various ways), and then looked through the catalog to find a slave cyl that was the rght length and bore diameter, I think it was a ford probe slave? Getting the ball stud adjusted just right is critical so you don't waste slave travel. Or you can just buy a kit from one of the suppliers.

[decooney]

I believe Southernautomotiveengines.com and cobraaccessories.com (Enzo and Paula) sells the kits for FE's if you want the easy route, but it's not cheap like home made. As Mr. Fixit says, you can make your own too. I've seen guys use slaves from Toyotas, even Forklift master/slaves for that matter on a few of the older Butler cars. The trick is getting it all (geometry) to work together seamlessly if you try to make it yourself. Some of the kits work pretty well. Most of the Cobra replica MFG's will sell you pieces too, depending on what car you have, and what mounting provisions you have, etc...

[Carnut427]

ERA uses a neat, simple bracket that bolts to the front side of the bellhousing, what I believe is a BMW 2002 (model, not year) slave cylinder and a 12" or so piece of 1/4" allthread to the stock fork. Works slicker n' snot. Ask Bob Putnam in the ERA thread if interested.
Good luck,

Dan