Clutch Problems.. Any Ideas ?

[Denny S.]

Car cold.. Clutch works perfectly. Mcleod Hydraulic TOB, McLeod 12 inch
Big clutch, McLeod Steel flywheel, When I drive the car it shifts perfectly, But after it's hot and or a couple of hard shifts the clutch pedal gets hard and if I stop it doesn't wanna go into gear. Shifting between gears while moving still is fine. Trying to get reverse car hot is difficult, doesn't want to go into reverse without grinding. And also on hard launches it feels like clutch is slipping somewhat before taking hold completely.. Ideas ??

[Junket]

Will give it a shot mabe you have a high DOT # fluid and it drew moisture when it gets hot doen't work???
Ken

[trularin]

Doesn't want to shift because the flywheel is turning.

Sounds like the hydraulic T.O. bearing fluid is boiling causing a lack of travel.

Try bleeding out the fluid you have and try some racing fluid ( sil. based ). Call the T.O. bearing company and tell them the fluid you are going to use and make sure they do not have any seal issues.

Some fluids have a water content in them which can be boiled and turned to gas at fairly warm temperatures. You may have one.

Is possible you have a clearance problem that is agravated by the increase in temp.

Good luck, hope this helps.

[Mr.Fixit]

How much gap did you set up between the clutch fingers and the fully compressed TO bearing when you installed it? .100-.125" is recommended. It could also be your pilot bearing dragging.

[decooney]

Denny,

don't feel bad... I am chasing the EXACT same situation with 1st, Reverse - with the exact same new 12" McLeoad clutch disc and pressure plate. Mine too works fine cold, then starts acting up when it gets to operating temp. I will be checking these next...

1. Revisit the bellhousing alignment procedure / Lakewood?
2. New 12" McLeod Clutch disc getting stuck on splines when hot, not sliding - tight tolerance between the input/disc splines?
3. New input shaft collar too long, smashing into clutch disc hub, and expanding just enough when it's hot?

Man, I don't want to take this back apart at the moment...

[Denny S.]

Your technical questions I'm sorry I can't answer because I didn't install the new clutch and pressure plate. Does your clutch get harder to push also ?? Pedal feels stiff... THe only thing I can say is that right now I need to replace my header gaskets, they have burned out and I'm wondering if because they are leaking exhaust in the engine compartment that extra heat is somehow cooking something. I'm going to refit new exhaust manifold gaskets tomorrow night and if that changes anything I will let you know. My clutch has been in the car for over 1000 miles though it's not a brand new install. Just seemed to start this business in the last month..

[decooney]

Denny,

I went back and found a good post by Cal Metal. If you have a Lakewood bellhousing too, I believe this is our problem. They key is Reverse!

Looks like I'll be pulling my trans/bellhousing, getting a dial indicator and fixing the alignment problem with my bellhousing. Here is a link to the post. Well, at least I know what it is now, and I'll go through the headache to make it correct.

Check out the former post. I just used the other link to download the alignment procedure... See Ya.

http://www.clubcobra.com/t39949.html

[BlueRooster]

I have a feeling this is the culprit with mine too. Reverse is the symtom, "dial in" is the problem. Has anyone counted the bolts on the bellhousing?? (just for sh!ts and giggles)

[Silk]

decooney, Rooster -

Same problem here, except I have the small inut/output Toploader and a McLeoad bellhousing (and the runout was checked when the engine went in). All the same symptoms that you guys seem to be having - working ok cool, but a bear to get into first when hot; and very minor grind going into reverse, particularly if I do it slowly. I've got Hurst linkage, and I'm begining to think it may be a misalignment problem there, since everything else seems to check out. New master & slave, new pilot & throwout bearing, and runout checked and ok when the engine was installed (and I don't think that can change over time, can it???).

Keep us posted here if you find the solution. I'm going to tough it out at the Spring Fling, then see if I can resolve it when I get home. Really becoming a colossal pain in the a$$!!

[decooney]

Silk,

actually, I've been wondering if it "can" change over time if not fixed. Meaning, if the problem is alignment and the input shaft is binding on the pilot bushing continuously, the bushing can wear/get hogged out to a point where the input shaft does not bind any longer. I certainly don't want to wait and test that theory out or my transmission will need a rebuild too.

I have a local event/visit on Sunday, and will start tearing mine apart next week. I'm currently looking for a good dial indicator and magnetic stand to affix to the flywheel. I talked with Doug at ERA and he uses a custom setup that mounts in place of the pressure plate instead. Either way, it looks like it has to be centered so that input shaft can float. I'm guessing just a little heat causes things to expand and that input shaft to get spun by the pilot bushing when the clutch is and when it's off alignment. ... process of elimination. Darn it, I thought I just had my car dialed too til we figured this one out.

[Mr.Fixit]

Yes, you MUST check alignment of bellhousing to the crank centerline, a magnetic base and cheapy dial indicator from harbor freight will do it if you get the three piece articulating arm (with only flywheel on crank not press-plate).
Also, check the depth that your input shaft goes into the bellhousing after the clutch and pressure plate are bolted up.
Make sure of the following distances using a piece of dowel or rod stock and a straight edge:
input shaft bottoming in end of crank
input shaft engaging into pilot bushing
input shaft splines engaging disk
input collar not touching disk's splines
Then setup the TO bearing for proper distance to clutch fingers.

[Denny S.]

My car won't creep even when hot and clutch is in. I just have a hard time sometimes getting into First & Reverse.
I think my problem is I may have a small leak at those friggen banjo fittings and I'm getting oil on the clutch. My clutch can shows evidence of fluid being forced out the top. I'm thinking heat is my culprit..
or crummy fluid boiling.. I'm gonna bleed it and start with fresh new fluid and see what happens.

[decooney]

Thanks Mr. Fixit.
All points well taken, and we'll definitely check evey one of them.

Denny,
I must say, I got so tired of the internal Tilton setup that I switched it out for the good ol' external hydraulics. Back to basics for me on that one.

[decooney]

Denny / all, step1 complete....

Well, the results are in after 3.5 hours of repeated measurements and reverification by myself and then again by an aerospace product machinist:

Lakewood FE Bellhousing, Test Indicator Results:
Side-to-Side: off center by .015
Top-to-Bottom: off center by .021

My Lakewood bellhousing is an unacceptable product. I can't believe companies get away with manufacturing this type of junk. Punching holes vs. boring holes is definitely not going to save Lakewood money when considering future lost sales. I just talked with David Kee today, and he said there was another customer with one that was even worse than mine, .050 off and it cost the guy a brand new 4-speed Toploader because of it - granaded after short term usage...

Beware, if you are reading this and just bought a new Lakewood bellhousing for your FE, verify and fix the bellhousing runout before you install the motor in your car. Don't risk it.

Thanks to everyone that replied.

[speed220mph]

Lakewood knows they have a problem, so they sell offset bushings for you, the customer, to correct their product.

When you're set up to check bellhousing runout, check the rear surface of the bellhousing to make sure it's parallel to its front face. If these surfaces aren't parallel, the transmission will be cocked in relation to the crankshaft, causing the transmission to jump out of gear.

As with the dowel holes, these surfaces should be square, but frequently they aren't. The only way to correct this problem is to rig the bellhousing with shims or remove the bellhousing and have it surface ground at a machine shop. While at it, I would overbore the dowel holes, insert them and rebore them to make the holes accurate.

[Mr.Fixit]

Offset dowels are needed in about a third of all scattershield installs (in my experience), reguardless of whose scattershield you use. They have even been necessary on factory cast aluminum bellhousings too. You are correcting the relationship between an engine block which has most likely been machined since the factory, and the scattershield. Your scattershield may fit somebody else's 427 and need no correction at all.

All scattershield manufacturers tell you to check and if necessary, correct alignment to the crank centerline.

[hdheritage97]

I just did the same exact thing on my car but now that it's all together, I'm doubting that my clutch clearance is sufficient. I haven't tried to drive it yet and still have it up on jack stands, but after bleeding the Tilton I looked through the crappy little inspection plate in the Lakewood while my friend depressed the clutch and found that my disk leaves the flywheel about a 16th of an inch. Is this sufficient or do I have to take it all apart and adjust that damn Tilton ? Also, before I blew my clutch, my Lakewood seemed fine with my old setup, would it change just because I changed clutch brands ? I wouldn't think so, but curious what you guys think. I'm just worried that I won't have enough clearance and I won't be able to get the car out of gear or change gears. Any ideas will be most appreciated.

Thanks,

Cliff

[hdheritage97]

I had planned to fire the car up on the jack stands and see if I could go through the gears. When I tried to start it, the starter isn't engaging. Why would that be when it's always been fine ? I changed to a Mcleod flywheel but that shouldn't make any difference at all. I'm kinda stumped on this one....lol. I've never had an engagement problem before so if you have any idea, if it's some sort of Lakewood issue, let me know.

Thanks again,

Cliff

[decooney]

Hey Denny,

Finally RESOLVED, once and for all.

Resolution:
- used Dial Indicator to perfectly center Lakewood bellhousing, it was definitely off .021 top to bottom, .015 side to side.
- ping/punched holes around pins, once centered
- rechecked and micro adjusted linkage with trans unconnected to bellhousing this time.
- firmly supported trans with jack, while tightening trans mount bolts this time. Allowed absolutely no sag to occur this time.
- replaced new Mexico T/O bearing from trans supplier with new McLeod T/O bearing. Just slightly looser on input collar this time.
- reused same 12" clutch disc and pressure plate from David Kee.


I can't believe it. It actually worked. It was worth it... taking it all back out again to resolve this tiny irritating problem. Goes into 1st and reverse now flawlessly every time - and Yes, when the engine is definitely warm for a while. I even tested it in torching summer heat today to be sure I wasn't having a short bout of daydreaming, wishful thinking, or something!

Just wanted to let you know how it turned out. Good luck on yours if you try it.

[Ant]

I have the opportunity to purchase a Lakewood bellhousing for small block Ford, but it seems from all the posts that they aren't that flash!

Would I be better to go with Factory Ford bellhousing, normal throwout fork, and fit a hydraulic cylinder on bellhousing. The next thing is safety with a standard bellhousing in case clutch explodes!