Need Toploader 1-2 detent and spring.

chuckbrandt · #1 (**permalink**) 05-30-2005, 06:22 AM

Hello,
I'm working on an issue with my toploader that it slips out of second on engine braking, decelleration, coasting. I noticed it first on a downhill twist road.

I first checked the linkage and it was fine. Then I pulled the top cover everything looks pretty good in there to me. The shift rail is not particularly worn and I don't think there is too much slop in the shift forks.

The only thing I question is the 1-2 detent pill is worn (which I can reverse it). And the detent spring, while it's plenty stiff, I wonder about it's free length. It only sticks up out of the case 1/8" when it's in gear so I wonder if that gives it enough preload.

Are these two parts available anywhere? The pill and the spring?

Thanks, Chuck Brandt

blykins · #2 (**permalink**) 05-30-2005, 06:26 AM

Chuck, you can get them both from David Kee.....I've ordered a couple springs from him before.....

www.davidkeetoploaders.com

How far were the spring bolts screwed in Chuck?

How do the blocking rings look? Are the teeth nice and sharp? What about the springs inside the synchro hubs? Are they worn?

chuckbrandt · #3 (**permalink**) 05-30-2005, 06:32 AM

Thanks, I'll check with David.

This is the 1-2 detent which the spring is held in by the top cover. Mine isn't threaded for a set screw, although in my '67 shop manual it appears that some are? Anyway, mine (RUG-M) doesn't have any threads there.

Everything looks new in the case to me, and it was supposedly rebuilt before I bought it. So I am leaning towards things like this that aren't in your regular rebuild kit.

Thanks, Chuck

Roadracer · #4 (**permalink**) 05-30-2005, 06:49 AM

Chuck,

I realize you state you've pulled the top cover and "it looks ok" in there. But,... (and your not going to like this), it's not likely the 1-2 detent and spring are the problem.

It's your 1-2 synchronizer, you need to replace it.. A detent and shift rail can be very worn and the toploader will still not pop out of gear.

A toploader that pops out of gear under decel is a very common sympton for a worn synchro ring. I just replaced the 1-2 syncro in my Shelby for the same problem.

Many people confuse the blocker rings for the syncro, the syncro is the actual ring that sides back and forth and selects the gear.

The internal splines on the syncro ring are designed to be a close tolerance fit with the internal piece that is splined to output shaft. After you remove it, if you look closely, you'll see the wear pattern on the inside of the syncro. It'll look like it's polished and barely worn.

There's your problem.

I would buy the parts from Mark at Toploader Heaven.

regards,

Charlie

chuckbrandt · #5 (**permalink**) 05-30-2005, 07:28 AM

Bummer... I'm not opposed to tearing the transmission down but I'd like to know I'm fixing the problem for sure.

Clearly there is some wear, enough that I'm pretty sure they weren't replaced during the "rebuild". But do they look bad enough to be the problem? Look pretty good to me.

Chuck

blykins · #6 (**permalink**) 05-30-2005, 07:49 AM

The blocking rings are new....that's what they replaced. The gear teeth look nice and sharp....but the synchro hub teeth look pretty bad. They should be sharp and pointy also...Some of them look blunt.

When you move the shifter fork, it moves the outer hub over the inner hub....There are springs between the outer and inner hubs that aid in pushing the synchronizer keys out. When the outer hub moves out, the outer hub teeth engage the blocking ring teeth. At the same time, the synchro keys are pushing the blocking ring up against the "clutch" cone area of the gear itself....synchronizing the speeds of all assemblies. Then the outer synchro hub can move in further and engage the teeth on the gear itself.

If all of these teeth are not sharp, or there is a problem with the springs, all of these assemblies will not engage correctly....and when the engine is "coasting" it gives it all a chance to fall back apart.

Cal Metal · #7 (**permalink**) 05-30-2005, 09:37 AM

Have to agree with Road Racer. It is more likely either the 1-2 synchronizer unit and/or second gear or both. Given the inexpensive nature of the parts, I would replace both of them as a set. David Kee has all the parts, including the shifter rails and brand new detents and springs. He is the only one on the planet who has the rails and detents that are brand new. Do it right and you won't have to tear it down again.

The typical fix are the blocker rings but they have NOTHING to do with retaining engagement between the sychro unit and the gear. The problem you describe was very typical on the old Borg Warner transmissions. After awhile, they give up the ghost and both pieces needed to be replaced.

Regarding the set screw and spring, some came with the screw and some did not. You can use the correct non screw spring in a case that has provisions for the set screw. The case you have is the best, imho, as the lid holds down the spring.

Excaliber · #8 (**permalink**) 05-30-2005, 10:53 AM

Yup, what Cal and Roadracer said, unlikely it's the spring/detent pin. One other possible is your shift boot. The rubber shift boot may be mounted a little bit to "forward" toward the engine. When the gear shift is pulled back into 2nd the rubber acts like a spring and puts pressure on the gear shift in the forward direction. It's just a little pressure, but enough to slip it out of gear under the condtions you describe. How about you remove the chrome ring to let the rubber boot totally relax and test drive again.

On the tear down be on the lookout for the tiny and often over looked "reverse lockout" pin. This is NOT like the other "detents". It goes in "sideways" compared to the others and slips out VERY easily during reassembly. If it falls out it will be possible when shifting into 1st to "drag" the reverse gear along and cause a "lockup" condition where the trans IS in 1st, but the reverse gear is partially engaged and the shifter mechanism "binds" BIG TIME. Then it's hard to get the shifter to move OUT of first, or reverse. Nasty little pin to install and keep in place during the rebuild. Careful not to use "heavy" grease on those needle bearings during assembly also. That grease won't easily melt away and the needle bearings will "starve" for oil when you first start to run the trans. Use some good "trans assembly type grease", with a low melting point.

chuckbrandt · #9 (**permalink**) 05-30-2005, 02:01 PM

I appreciate everyone's input so far. I pulled the tranny out and will order parts tomorrow. Luckily it's pretty easy to pull the tranny on an ERA, this is about the 3rd time I've done it!

Thanks, Chuck

Excaliber · #10 (**permalink**) 05-30-2005, 02:07 PM

I've had mine out a couple of times too, I didn't find it "that easy". Wait, compared to what? My friend pulled his T5 out of his FFR, what a nightmare that was, I'll take the ERA please!

Are you runnning a bushing or a bearing for your pilot hole in the back of the crankshaft? I'm running a bearing and the trans snout fits VERY TIGHT in the bearing hole. My trans doesn't exactly "slip right in there", thats the toughest part, getting the last 1/2 inch to put the trans bolts in!

chuckbrandt · #11 (**permalink**) 05-30-2005, 02:18 PM

I've never had much trouble with mine in that regard. I have in the past used longer bolts with heads cut off to align things as they slide together.

Chuck

chuckbrandt · #12 (**permalink**) 05-30-2005, 02:58 PM

I need to evaluate Cal Metals probably excellent suggestion to replace 2nd gear at the same time. Here is my second gear, there is some wear on the very tips of the teeth. Probably should do it do don't you all think?

Thanks, Chuck

blykins · #13 (**permalink**) 05-30-2005, 03:34 PM

Might as well Chuck. They do kinda look a little chewed on the ends. You're gonna have to disassemble everything that far anyway....wouldn't hurt to just pop 2nd gear off and replace it. Probably good insurance for the future.

Have you rebuilt one of these trannies before? You'll need a bearing press, a really dandy pair of snap ring pliers....and some dowel rod to press the cluster gear shaft out.

Heed Ernie's advice and watch where that interlock pin goes...when you slide the shift rod out, it will tend to fall out and be mixed in with all the grime at the bottom of the tranny case.

You should have no problems.....I did mine.....and by the looks of your website (nice one I might add) you shouldn't have any problems.

Cal Metal · #14 (**permalink**) 05-30-2005, 03:36 PM

When you have it torn down, replace anything that is suspect. If I were you, assuming you are keeping the car for awhile, replace the rails and detents while you have it out. They take a beating, especially in cars that do not have shifter stops on the shifter. You will notice that when inspecting the parts after the teardown.

David Kee has all the parts you will need. Don't settle for lesser quality; otherwise, you will find yourself tearing it down, again.

blykins · #15 (**permalink**) 05-30-2005, 03:39 PM

Oh, BTW....if you've never rebuilt one before.....when you put it back together, make sure the synchronizer keys are with the right synchro hub.....There is a set that are longer than the other set.....I know this little tid-bit from experience.

Also, since you're going into a rebuild this in-depth, you might wanna order the road race rebuild kit from David Kee. I went that route.....extra beefy bearings, new C-rings, etc.....good kit. Worth the money.

BTW....Ernie...I have the problem that you have.....I'm running a pilot bearing also.....little rough on that last 1/2 inch or so.

chuckbrandt · #16 (**permalink**) 05-30-2005, 03:53 PM

I rebuilt the 3 speed version of the top loader for my early bronco. I should have the tools required I think.

Thanks guys,

Chuck

Excaliber · #17 (**permalink**) 05-30-2005, 03:56 PM

Thanks for that up-date blykins, I was starting to feel "lonely".

chuckbrandt · #18 (**permalink**) 06-13-2005, 04:40 AM

Well I got the transmission back in the car and have very difficult shifts into first and second. I can get it there but not like it should.

I replaced 2nd gear, 1-2 syncro, both large shift forks, reverse sliding gear, and all the shift rails.

I think the issue is the blocking ring is sticking to the new 2nd gear. I noticed this when testing on the bench but thought it would be better once it was in the grease.

Another thing I wonder about is the David Kee shift rail kit came with 2 odd shaped detent pills. Any idea where they go? I didn't know so I just used the best of my original shaped pills, but now I wonder if the new shift rails are specific to them. They are a bit shorter but I think in a V detent their effective length would be about the same.

I just drove the car around the block, but it doesn't seem like this is going to get better on it's own. I'm psyching myself up for another tear down, I just want to be sure I know how to fix it right.

Thanks for any opinions,

Chuck

blykins · #19 (**permalink**) 06-13-2005, 05:03 AM

Yeah, those are hatchet head detents....If I remember correctly, there are what...about 4 detents? Man it's been a long time....I think the very bottom and the very top ones are rounded on the ends....the middle two that sit in the shift rails are shaped like a hatchet to slide in and out of the notches on the shift rails easily.

Like I said, it's been a year or so since I went through mine....but that's the best I can remember....

I hope that's what you were referring to.....

chuckbrandt · #20 (**permalink**) 06-13-2005, 05:15 AM

I should clarify that my trans didn't have this style of detent at all. They were all the round kind. The shift rail kit came with 2 of these hatchet ones. On the David Kee website they describe the shift rail kit as '65. And my shop manual is a '67. My trans is a '67 also but it differs from the picture in that mine doesn't have a set screw holding the 1-2 detent spring in.

Thanks, Chuck