Tko600 Warning!!!! - Page 9

David Kirkham · #**161** (**permalink**) 11-12-2006, 09:54 PM

The "Sherlock Holmes" intelligence on this site NEVER ceases to amaze me!

YOU GUYS ARE THE COOLEST!

Thanks to all for a very educational discussion--on SEVERAL topics.

David

ps. next time I get sick, I am just going to post my symptoms and I imagine I will have found a cure in...12 or so pages

Excaliber · #**162** (**permalink**) 11-12-2006, 10:25 PM

David, it still amazes me as well. I've seen it time and time again, this bunch will get to the bottom of whatever it is.

eschaider · #**163** (**permalink**) 11-13-2006, 12:44 AM

As I was looking at the before picture of the transmission Anthony posted in 141 (flip the picture to get the same orientation as the repaired unit) and the picture Fordfan posted in the picture bucket of the repaired unit, it appears that the countershaft third gear is not only misaligned but possibly narrower than the mainshaft gear.

I think the only way to determine this is actually measure the face width of the gear. Fordfan are you listening? It's easy to do on your unit, its already on the bench. If it is narrower then maybe it is not a TKO 600 countershaft!

Can a TKO 500 countershaft or a 3550 countershaft be put in a TKO 600 box? If it can and if that has happened here then the news is very good. That means a correctly engineered countershaft is already available. It is the one originally designed for the transmission and only needs to be swapped for the incorrect piece that currently is in there.

Ed

trularin · #**164** (**permalink**) 11-13-2006, 06:30 AM

Sometimes it takes eight to ten of us to say the same thing.

I wonder if Tremec has prints avaialble to see if that is the intent.

There is also the possibility someone that has done several of these could put in a word. HMmmm.............

Might be a good question for JimiG.

$0.02 more worth.

craigayl · #**165** (**permalink**) 11-13-2006, 08:08 AM

Fordfan

You stated "one piece countershaft". Is it really? Early Tremecs did have a on piece countershaft but was changed to a 3 piece assembly. 3rd and 4th gear now slip onto the shaft as separate gears. If yours is an early one piece countershaft, that may be the source of the misalignment. I have not seen where there were any case changes so you may be able to exchange the old countershaft for a late model to solve this problem.

Craig

RICK LAKE · #**166** (**permalink**) 11-13-2006, 10:42 AM

Fordfan69 Sell the trans. If you are going to keep the car and do some hard
driven, and want more than a 4 speed, go G-Force. They build everything in house and stand behind there product without and questions. There trans has a collar setup to hold the 2 main shafts togeather and not allow gear walking. The lower gear in the picture looks off center, is this correct?? A Nash 5 speed the Jegs or Summit sells are nice but only good for 450HP and 450 tork, I think that is marginal also. Nash 6 speed is the same. You could get away with street tires like BFG or Dunlop Qualifiers. Anything softer and you are looking for another trans breaking. TKO 600,this trans would work well in a small block cobra, bigger heavier cars, I would pass. Rick Lake

Fordfan69 · #**167** (**permalink**) 11-13-2006, 03:31 PM

I am listening loud and clear. I do have the "one-piece" countershaft. I don't understand it, I have a supposed late model gear box, but have the supposed earlier one-piece countershaft. I do have the extra row of needlebearings in the 5th gear which indicates late model.

I will measure the gears tonight and let you know the exact measurments. I will also measure the misalignment so that I have an exact number.

I'll get back to you guys. It would be great if we got to the bottom of this.

Greg.

Fordfan69 · #**168** (**permalink**) 11-13-2006, 06:34 PM

Hi guys,

I have measured the gears both new ones now pre-assembled in box, and old failed ones. The measurements are as follows:

3rd gear driven gear width: .975"
3rd countershaft gear width: 1.010"

The difference being: .035" (insignificant, in my opinion)

Mis-alignment from 3rd gear to 3rd countershaft gear: .140"

This equates to 14.4% of the total width (SIGNIFICANT, in my opinion)

This means (as you surmised) 650 ft./lbs. - 14.4% = 556 ft./lbs. capacity.

This is a reduction in strength of just about 100 ft./lbs..

My 450 ft./lbs. at the wheels + heavy car + very soft street drag tires = probably over the capacity of the available 556 ft./lbs. of capacity at the tranny.

I really think this theory is correct. Has anyone had the opportunity to check their tko600 yet? I would bet many if not all with the single countershaft are the same.

Greg.

eschaider · #**169** (**permalink**) 11-13-2006, 08:19 PM

The pictures fooled me. I measured the countershaft gear at 23.5mm wide (0.925")in the photo and the mainshaft gear at 28mm wide(1.10").

If we use your measurements and assume the wider gear was the correct design width then the .975" wide gear has only .835" of face width in contact with its mating gear. The transmission's torque capacity in third gear would then be (0.835/1.01)*600 or 496 lbs-ft.

I used 600 lbs-ft as the transmission torque capacity because that is what Tremec advertises on their website http://www.tremec.com/English/products/TKO.asp

If you have the tires hooked up and an engine with approximately that much torque and then add the rotating inertia of the engine-flywheel-clutch assembly at say a 6000 RPM shift point, it is not hard to see how you could induce a cascading third gear tooth failure that would get both the driving and driven gears.

I believe that even though you have good replacement parts you will desroy them yet again if you engage third gear under power with the tires hooked up. The gears need to mate up without misalignment and should be the same width. Look at all the other gear pairs, that is the way third should look.

This is minimally a manufacturing QA problem if the wrong parts got put together. If these are the right parts then we have a much bigger problem for all of us and also Tremec.

Ed

hssss · #**170** (**permalink**) 11-13-2006, 10:28 PM

No tech and I have only plowed thru the first third of this thread but couldn't help but compare this thread and one that I recently saw over at c-c. http://forums.corner-carvers.com/showthread.php?t=31831

keislerNick · #**171** (**permalink**) 11-14-2006, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craigayl

Fordfan

You stated "one piece countershaft". Is it really? Early Tremecs did have a on piece countershaft but was changed to a 3 piece assembly. 3rd and 4th gear now slip onto the shaft as separate gears. If yours is an early one piece countershaft, that may be the source of the misalignment. I have not seen where there were any case changes so you may be able to exchange the old countershaft for a late model to solve this problem.

Craig

The TKO countershafts are all one piece countershafts.

keislerNick · #**172** (**permalink**) 11-14-2006, 06:31 AM

Well yesterday I was replacing a case on a transmission for a customer he had broke the mounting ears on the front of the main case. Interesting thing was he broke it because the driveshaft broke hit in the tunnel a few times and ended up breaking the trans case and the starter ears to. This however was a TKO 1 older style was in a early 90s turbo mustang making over 750whp on the dyno running 9.35 at 138 fairly consistent with the tko 1 trans. So I think they will hold up and many have ran great times with these transmissions.

Now with the g-force someone had posted about whatever they use in the case to avoid gear climb and so on. If you have a tko and you are looking for the g-force alternative and like your tko Pro-motion industries has run 9s with a tko 500 trans so they offer the same high performance drag application. They have an internal cage to stop gear climb along with the kryo treating and many other options.

keislerNick · #**173** (**permalink**) 11-14-2006, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fordfan69

My 450 ft./lbs. at the wheels + heavy car + very soft street drag tires = probably over the capacity of the available 556 ft./lbs. of capacity at the tranny.

Greg.

If you decide to sell your transmission and go to something new. I would consider the transmission from the toyota supra. I have personally owned 2 of them and it will hold up to what you have easily bone stock. The getrag v160 transmission is a 6 speed and there are tons of supras still running this trans stock because no one has upgrades for them and you never hear about issues with them. I have seen alot of guys talk about the weight of your car and the torque. Ryans supra has a stock trans in it weighed 3550 on the scales and has run 8.62@171 in the quarter mile with 1350whp to the ground and has not broke the trans yet. This tranny is a good one if you are considering a stock unit that will more than do the job for your car.

keislerNick · #**174** (**permalink**) 11-14-2006, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craigayl

Something I'm curious about.

The countershaft third gear thrusts against the countershaft fourth gear that is held on the countershaft with a snap ring. On the failed transmissions, is there any slop between these gears and is that snap ring in place? Something else to consider.

Craig

Here is my analysis not sure which countershaft you have seen if you look in his pictures with the yellow paint you can tell the shaft is a one piece if you are familiar with tremec transmission. The countershaft in his trans if you look at 2nd and 3rd on the counter you can see the bevel in between those gears thats where you can tell they were cut as a one piece shaft. Now on the 3 piece shaft there is no bevel or gap in between those two gears.

eschaider · #**175** (**permalink**) 11-14-2006, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keislerNick

Here is my analysis not sure which countershaft you have seen if you look in his pictures with the yellow paint you can tell the shaft is a one piece if you are familiar with tremec transmission. The countershaft in his trans if you look at 2nd and 3rd on the counter you can see the bevel in between those gears thats where you can tell they were cut as a one piece shaft. Now on the 3 piece shaft there is no bevel or gap in between those two gears.

In post 171 you state the TKOs all have one piece ccountershafts. In this post you discuss the characteristics of the three piece countershaft. The post begs the question do TKOs have one piece, three piece or both style countershafts, or maybe even more choices?

Ed

keislerNick · #**176** (**permalink**) 11-14-2006, 11:38 AM

Hopefully this will clear that up. The tko1 was still a 3550 trans the older one still used the 3 peice countershaft. Now the only issue I have ever seen with those was they had a key way in those that would sheer so people with those should use promotion industries they will key the full length of the press on then weld and remachine and thus make the 3 peice stronger. Now on the TKO 500 and the 600 only one peice countershafts should be in them. You should not have a 3 peice in a 500 or 600 model.

Fordfan69 · #**177** (**permalink**) 11-14-2006, 01:33 PM

Nick,

How do we get rid of the misalignment with the 3rd gears. I have sent e-mails to Jeff at Tremec with the pics and have had no response at all. Been a week already. Why would there be this misalignment? There is not much room at all to shim the driven gear forward. I could never move that gear over the .140" that I need to. What do you think?

Greg.

RICK LAKE · #**178** (**permalink**) 11-14-2006, 04:21 PM

Kiesler Nick, I think it's great that Ryan supra make 1300hp, what's the tork? Tork, poor driving habits,gear sets out of spec, too tight or loose, wrong fluids in trans, poor machine work from CNC operators, and the list goes on. How much of a pain in the A$$ is it to install a Getrag trans behind any Ford or GM product. There are options for the tko500 and 600, this should be included with the price of the trans. By the time you add the custom parts and machining to the trans you are at the same price as G-Force. G-force has 2-3 options for a trans, Tork tube, and 200+ gears choices. G-force has run in Pro Stock, Have not seen any TKO's yet. I have two shifters for my car, a vertigate for 1/4 mile and a short shifter for autocross and road racing. Every trans has it's limits and the price different between the G-force and tko600 with the bells and whisles added, I stay with G. G-force has a kit for TKO,$2,500.00 to improve this trans and blueprint it. I have seen Vipers break this trans with 600 hp and other drive with 750 hp and have no problem. You are in bussiness to sell products for companys, How many time have you had the stones to tell the truth about a product that is not up to the mark. I am a mechanic for 25+ years. There is alot of bull out there, there does seam to be an alignment problem in the pictures above, I am gald you helped out Fordfan69, problem is how many others are out there with the same problem and when there's breaks what happens???? I have never heard of a company having a RECALL for defective parts unless lawsuits and death happens. Rick L

Buzz · #**179** (**permalink**) 11-14-2006, 04:46 PM

T-O-R-Q-U-E !!! dammit

Btw, I agree about G-Force.

Fordfan69 · #**180** (**permalink**) 11-14-2006, 05:25 PM

Ed (eschaider),

Have you checked you gearbox yet? Has anyone been able to open theirs up yet to see if this is a tko600 - wide problem? I don't see how anyone else's box could be any different than mine, being the way it's designed.

Greg.