Tko600 Warning!!!!

[keislerNick]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

Kiesler Nick, I think it's great that Ryan supra make 1300hp, what's the tork? Tork, poor driving habits,gear sets out of spec, too tight or loose, wrong fluids in trans, poor machine work from CNC operators, and the list goes on. How much of a pain in the A$$ is it to install a Getrag trans behind any Ford or GM product. There are options for the tko500 and 600, this should be included with the price of the trans. By the time you add the custom parts and machining to the trans you are at the same price as G-Force. G-force has 2-3 options for a trans, Tork tube, and 200+ gears choices. G-force has run in Pro Stock, Have not seen any TKO's yet. I have two shifters for my car, a vertigate for 1/4 mile and a short shifter for autocross and road racing. Every trans has it's limits and the price different between the G-force and tko600 with the bells and whisles added, I stay with G. G-force has a kit for TKO,$2,500.00 to improve this trans and blueprint it. I have seen Vipers break this trans with 600 hp and other drive with 750 hp and have no problem. You are in bussiness to sell products for companys, How many time have you had the stones to tell the truth about a product that is not up to the mark. I am a mechanic for 25+ years. There is alot of bull out there, there does seam to be an alignment problem in the pictures above, I am gald you helped out Fordfan69, problem is how many others are out there with the same problem and when there's breaks what happens???? I have never heard of a company having a RECALL for defective parts unless lawsuits and death happens. Rick L

On a side note ryans car made 990.43 ft lbs of torque off the bottle on this inline 6 cyclinder. But I agree with you g-force makes a great race trans that is well known in the market. As far as your TKO goes for those that want to use them for racing Pro-Motion Perfromance Powertrain sets the TKO trans up for race application. Recently in 06 they won the NMRA Real Street Championships with a TKO 500 trans running 9sec times so you and that is with a stock gear set in it but it is pro shifted with the cage.

[eschaider]

The ET of the vehicle is not necessarily indicative of the load the transmission sees. A light car can turn identical ETs to a heavy car and the heavy car will always load the drive train more. In fact the heavy car can turn slower ETs and still load the drive train more. Time to get over the ET thing.

Ed

[eschaider]

Greg,

I have not checked my new in the box 4617 yet. I've been on the road but will return next week and I will check.

Ed

[keislerNick]

Originally Posted by eschaider

The ET of the vehicle is not necessarily indicative of the load the transmission sees. A light car can turn identical ETs to a heavy car and the heavy car will always load the drive train more. In fact the heavy car can turn slower ETs and still load the drive train more. Time to get over the ET thing.

Ed

Ed, I agree with you 100 percent thats why I posted that the weight of the car on the scales the day they ran the car. 3550 lbs but your right about weight it definately compounds the load.

[Fordfan69]

Hi Fellas,

I have received a response regarding the 3rd gear misalignment issue. I would like your responses (especially Transmission-trades people) :

"Greg,
If you look at the main shaft gears, second, third, and fourth, the tooth contact patterns are to the tooth “root” and all three contact patterns are centered on the main shaft gear teeth."

My response to him was:

"Yes, Jeff, I can see that, but the mis-alignment still reduces the contact area to a significant degree. Even though the contact patch is centered and deep, this should still result in reduced torque capacity, from what I suspect. If this is not correct, please give me a detailed explanation as to why this is not the case. I am waiting soley on your response in order to seal this tranny up and reinstall.

Thank you Jeff,

Greg. "

What do you guys think? I feel he didn't address the real issue of the gear mis-alignment. I understand that mesh pattern plays an important role, but I feel that the mis-alignment is a big issue also.

Thanks for your input, opinions.

Ed (eshaifer) - I anxiously await the results of the inspection of your tranny when you get back. - thanks.

Cheers guys -
Greg.

[Excaliber]

The misalignment may or may not acutally be a problem, THATS what were trying to find out all right.

I guess another question is: Is this typical for all TKO's and within specs (3rd gear alignment thing)?

[craigayl]

Greg

I’m not sure I agree with Jeff. Again, looking at a picture makes it difficult, but if the countershaft gear is setting forward of the main shaft gear as it appears, the countershaft gear will exert way more force on the forward edge of the main shaft gear. This is the problem of an off set and what you see in the failed gears. The teeth start to fail at the forward edge of the main shaft gear and the destruction continues until the teeth are gone. I don’t think only looking at the contact pattern in the middle of the gear tells the whole story.

Craig

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by craigayl

, but if the countershaft gear is setting forward of the main shaft gear as it appears, the countershaft gear will exert way more force on the forward edge of the main shaft gear. This is the problem of an off set and what you see in the failed gears. The teeth start to fail at the forward edge of the main shaft gear and the destruction continues until the teeth are gone. I don’t think only looking at the contact pattern in the middle of the gear tells the whole story.

Because the teeth are at an angle, the front leading edge of the tooth will engage first and as the gear rotates, the force will distributed towards the middle and then rear edge of the tooth, so the loading of the tooth through rotation is kind of complex. At any given time, one tooth will be loaded on the leading edge, while the tooth before it will be loaded in the middle, and the tooth before it will be loaded on the rear aspect of the tooth. I think a mechanical engineer with a background in gear design, transmission, would be the real person to get correct info from on what are the main factors for gear failure in this case scenario.

[RICK LAKE]

Greg do everybody a favor, Call G-force and send the trans out for there blue print job!!! Old school, gears should be parallel to each other with main contact spot in the middle of the 2 gears. They now set gears to drive into each other with one being a little head of the other. The play in the shafts, and the air gap between where the gear are engaged are the most important thing. I am no KieslerNick fan but they have given out more help than alot of other companys. Break a motor and take it back to the machinist and see what happens if the bearing are spun, It's all yours 98% of the time. Kiesler Nick Nick I can but a 1K motor to the back of any "stock trans" and it will live for some time. There is a Viper running 8.0's with a STOCK trans but read a little farther down and find that the trans went to G-Force for a blueprint job. I think the your company has helped Greg with his problem. There are too many trans specialist NOW getting into this thread. I am backing out. Nick maybe down the road Tremac should have a trans school like FORD and GM for building trans for racing or blueprinting. Just a thought Rick Lake trans schools for GM 31,5-6 speed trans rebuilt 4, came back blownup 2, putting the right trans application to the right motor, pricless. Clutches don't count

[jeffko]

You guys can analyze this to death and it does make for some interesting reading, but what happened was a mechanical failure that should not have failed. This transmission was broken while being used exactly what it was built for. Tremec even added the torque rating to the name and promotes their product as having the ability to take brute force and rightfully so. I have over 450 rwt on a TKO and I drive it pretty hard most all the time whether on the track, strip, street because that’s what I built it for. Likewise, most guys in our club have a Tremec without any problems. We have 2 or 3 guys (me being one of them) that have broken axles and half shafts without fazing the Tremecs. This poor guy got a trans with a manufacturing flaw and it failed. As good as a Tremec is do they really think that every trans they make is perfect? Insult to injury this guy got hosed on the price and still these pussies where he bought it will not do the right thing.

My solution….Boycott Keisler and we all demand Tremec repair their failures….even if they think it was some kind of end user abuse, which I strongly believe it was not. Remember, they advertise and we buy their products because they are tough and we have the right to demand service for what we paid for. The next time this happens it could be one of us.

http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English...tactusform.asp

[Excaliber]

I wouldn't assume Fordfan69 got 'hosed on the price'. The custom PACKAGE he bought which included more than just a trans, may be a reasonable price. The issue is the trans failure, not the price paid.

[trularin]

I just did my trans swap. I talked with Jimi maybe three or four times and got all the "Special" parts I needed to make the exchange. It didn't cost anywhere near what these guys changed.

Ernie, I am not sure what was really delivered to the victim, so you may be correct, but I believe he could have done better by shopping around.

I probably will not buy anything from this Keisler organization for at least two reasons: 1) I would not know if I am getting hosed on the price. 2) I would feel I was abandoned if the item sold to me failed in anyway.

Just my $0.02 to a very long thread.

[Excaliber]

Sometimes it's better to 'sole source' a product and it's accessories to avoid the hassle of 'shopping around'. Generally speaking you will pay more if you do this. Tech support can be invaluable on occasion. I've found you can ALWAYS get a better price AFTER you've built your whatever.

The sales, the 'what if's', the new really good sources are endless in hindsight! And now that you've 'learned' perhaps you don't need that 'technical' support as much as when you started. Tough call when and where to buy.

[flipper35]

For what you get the price isn't that out of line considering it is a complete package to install in his Charger. When they first started with the TKO II they would even relocate the shifter to fit the stock console. I don't know if they still do, but I would think so.

[trularin]

Forgot about this being in a Dudge.

[keislerNick]

Originally Posted by jeffko

You guys can analyze this to death and it does make for some interesting reading, but what happened was a mechanical failure that should not have failed. This transmission was broken while being used exactly what it was built for. Tremec even added the torque rating to the name and promotes their product as having the ability to take brute force and rightfully so. I have over 450 rwt on a TKO and I drive it pretty hard most all the time whether on the track, strip, street because that’s what I built it for. Likewise, most guys in our club have a Tremec without any problems. We have 2 or 3 guys (me being one of them) that have broken axles and half shafts without fazing the Tremecs. This poor guy got a trans with a manufacturing flaw and it failed. As good as a Tremec is do they really think that every trans they make is perfect? Insult to injury this guy got hosed on the price and still these pussies where he bought it will not do the right thing.

My solution….Boycott Keisler and we all demand Tremec repair their failures….even if they think it was some kind of end user abuse, which I strongly believe it was not. Remember, they advertise and we buy their products because they are tough and we have the right to demand service for what we paid for. The next time this happens it could be one of us.

http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English...tactusform.asp

Being hosed on the price, I am not aware of another company that supplies turn key transmission kit for a mopar. Its a great kit and we worked with Greg to fix his problem. Keisler supplied the counter shaft and the other parts for the transmission. Also a cobra kit car doesnt have any weight behind it, and most of them dont have good traction that does make a huge difference.

[turnpike boy]

Originally Posted by keislerNick

Being hosed on the price, I am not aware of another company that supplies turn key transmission kit for a mopar. Its a great kit and we worked with Greg to fix his problem. Keisler supplied the counter shaft and the other parts for the transmission. Also a cobra kit car doesnt have any weight behind it, and most of them dont have good traction that does make a huge difference.

Implying, that if it did, we might find ourselves in the same boat as FordFan?

Do Tremec -AND their dealers -really believe they have the only product on the market?

[eschaider]

I just checked my new TKO 4617. The countershaft alignment problem that Greg (Fordfan) has also exists in my new, never used, still in the box untill I opened it TKO.

My transmission appears to have the countershaft shimmed backward towards the rear of the case. The effect of the apparent shimming was to share the total misalignment between second and third gear rather than having third gear absorbing the total misalignment. Come to think of it, the rearward placement of the countershaft will affect every mainshaft gear that meshes with it!

When I bought the transmission the reseller strongly encouraged me to have them 'blueprint' the box before shipping. The cost was just under a hundred bucks. For cheap money I thought what the heck, why not, its just good insurance in case the factory missed something that could come back to haunt me later.

I am now of the opinion the reseller already knew of the problem and in 'blueprinting' was attempting to stack the longevity deck as best as possible by spreading the load reduction across multiple gears, given the Tremec design flaw.

This problem appears to be a Tremec design error. More significantly it defies rational thinking that the folks at minimally Tremec and probably Keisler were unaware of the design error. It is even more troubling that Keisler would misrepresent the cause of failure as a partially engaged third gear resulting from a missed shift.

What each of us, with a TKO 600 TCET4617 appears to have is a transmission with a faulty countershaft design that does not fully engage the tooth face of one or more mainshaft gears. Greg (Fordfan) was aggressive enough in his cry for help and the potential of a broad based foul play that at least one of the websites he posted on (Club Cobra) unraveled the ball of fishing twine.

Keisler is a major disappointment, along with Tremec. It could well be that Tremec advised their dealer network that Tremec would not honor warranties for failed third gear gearsets. The dealers, in this case Keisler, in turn then assigned the cause of failure to the owner with misrepresentations and disingenuous statements because they wouldn't/couldn't carry the expense of warranting Tremec's design error.

Tremec has the real responsibility to both stand good for the repairs and most importantly to produce a countershaft replacement that engages all mainshaft gears correctly. Resellers like Keisler need to be very carefully scrutinized to determine if they deserve our business. Keisler's behavior and deliberate attempts to obfuscate the truth really give reason for pause and reflection.

Ultimately each of us will have to make his own decision. When you do, think about the events that have transpired here, put yourself in Greg's (Fordfan's) place and ask yourself if this is fair treatment and how would you feel if the tables were turned. Remember that if you have a TKO 600 (and probably 500 also) this failure could be just down the road waiting for you!

Ed

[jeffko]

Kudos Ed. Shame on us if we don't make our concerns felt by Tremec. I think they produce some very fine products, but they !$#^%~^ here and need to address the problem.

[RICK LAKE]

Ed if you opened your trans and see the same problem, SEND THE TRANS BACK for a refund. I am not on Keilsers side, like you said they didn't make the trans, they only sell it. Nick I don't care about Mopars as far as on Club Cobra, there maybe 10 hemis or 440's in cobras compared to how many thousands of ford motors, big and small blocks. For anybody that has bought a tremec trans, there is a strong need to have it blueprinted or redone. I don't think $100.00 is going to do anything. If David Kees reads this, ask him how much to blueprint a trans on top of a rebuild? A solid guess would be $300.00-$700.00 plus parts. Guys you need to go after Tremec HARD. I am sure there are other clubs with the same problems. Kielser made good on Fordfan 69. If you hold Kielser at fault for these trans breaking, they will be out of business real fast. There are a couple laws on here, guys who do you go after???I vote for Tremec, Iam sure they know of this problem. Question is what are they doing about it. Rick Lake