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06-16-2009, 03:43 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Louisville,
KY
Cobra Make, Engine: I'm Cobra-less!
Posts: 9,417
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Depending on the noise, it could very well be a defective throw out bearing. He should be able to pinpoint where the noise is coming from....the clutch area, or the transmission.
I agree, it could very well be transmission noise. He says it gets more noticeable as everything warms up. It makes sense.
Doesn't hurt to take a look at some other things just to be safe though.
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06-16-2009, 05:03 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Oakville,
Ont
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 322
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ok my throw out bearing is turning all the time, there is no tiny gap as some have posted, so i am going to try and adjust it a bit and see where it gets me, it cant be good to have the throw out bearing pressing up against the pressure plate all the time.
ok to adjust the clutch i have to back it off untill the throw out bearing is just starting to touch the pressure plate??
i have checked the fluid level and it checks out.
should i check for anything else?
the noise is more of a chatter sound, thats what has me thinking its the weights on the pressure plate,, but then i say why will it get louder as its warmer? damm car...haha
THANK YOU.........to you all who have posted and are trying to help me out, its people like you who make owning one of these cars more bearable
Last edited by maxum_101; 06-16-2009 at 05:07 PM..
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06-16-2009, 05:14 PM
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Half-Ass Member
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA #732, 428FE (447 CID), TKO600, Solid Flat Tappet Cam, Tons of Aluminum
Posts: 22,011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxum_101
ok to adjust the clutch i have to back it off untill the throw out bearing is just starting to touch the pressure plate??
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Read my previous post that includes a link to an older post in which I detail how to adjust your clutch. While you're under the car you might want to take some shots of your clutch linkage area and post them just so we could take a little "look-see." You never know what we might spot.
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06-16-2009, 06:27 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: E BRUNSWICK N.J. USA,
Posts: 3,841
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People that don't under stand how there pressure plate works
madmaxx Max here is the short story about MY problem with CENTERFORCE. I installed a Gold unit to a new flywheel. Setup the air gap and installed a new Richmond trans 6 spd. I had to shorten the input shaft .380" for the FE motor I was running. I bled the clutch master and slave with a vacuum setup. No air was in the system. The clutch worked fine below 3,000 rpms. Over 3,000 rpms the trans wouldn't shift. If the rpms match the trans rpms it would slide up a gear or down a gear. At a stop I could shift the car into any gear when not rolling or rolling slow at 2-3 mph. I talked to 3 different guys about how this pressure plate works with the sliding weights. I have worked on 2 and 3 multi disc clutch setup in funny and rail cars back in the 70's. I do have a small idea on setup. I was told by the techs that the problem was the new trans. I sent the trans back to Richmond and explained the problem with the shifting. Trans was pulled apart no problems found with the forks, blocking rings, synros, or shifter assembly. The oil was from Richmond. Cost for shipping both ways $300.00. No Charge for inspection. Reinstalled the trans, same problem over 3,000 rpms. Called Centerforce again, explained problem, They said it was the trans. I told them the report I got from Richmond said the trans was no the problem. I was going to race the car and the torque rating on the 6 spd trans is only 450 HP and torque. With my 452 motor I was at 450 of torque. I ordered a G-Force clutchless 5 spd for the car with a long shifter. I got the trans in 4 weeks. Installed the trans, same fricking problem. I am @#$%^&&%)&*& off at this time. I had a pro builder for race cars come over one night and look at the problem. The bell housing was .038" off. spent 3 hours getting it to .002-.003" square to the motor. Reinstalled the trans ( 5 spd) same problem at 3,000 rpms. Called Centerforce, got more crap from them. I was the ONLY ONE with this problem. I went on the internet and found many people with the same shifting issues. They all went to Other clutches to resolve the problem. I am pig headed and pulled the pressure plate again and REMOVED the sliding weights. Reinstalled the trans (5 spd), the trans shifted like butter to 6,000 rpms without and problem. Pulled the 5 spd and installed the 6spd Richmond and the same thing was happening, NO SHIFTING problem. I call Centerforce and told them about this, and they said no way. I told them I would never buy a piece of CR@P again from them and tell any one who would listen the same thing. There stock clutch plate is good for about 2,600 lbs of pressure. The 452 motor was fine without the weights, the 482 is slipping the clutch a little on fast WOT hits. Total cost to me for this problem was $6,500.00. I am going to a Mcleod clutch streettwin with next motor. Lite pedal and will hold 600 ft of torque. I have run Borg and Beck, Diaphams style, Schaffer, Zoom, and remans. and never went though this problem in 30 years. I have gotten e-mails that some guys are running them without any problems. I even welded a support bar to the clutch fork because I thought it was bending when the weights where adding pressure to the fingers and causing the locking up of the clutch. I found out the ERA runs Centerforce in some of there cars without the weights on the pressure plate. Guess I wasnot the only one with this problem. This the story. I have the bills to prove this too. Any way the problem is fixed and the car runs good,That's all that matters in the end. Rick L.
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06-16-2009, 06:45 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Lakeland,
FL
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA 427SC FMS 351W
Posts: 199
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Removing the Centerforce weights from the fork slot?
I have a Centerforce PP with the weights and a new TKO600, after reading this, I think I want to remove the weights. Can this be done with the engine and transmission in the car? I thought I remember reading a thread where a CC member successfully removed the weights and bar that holds the weights via the fork splot in the bellhousing. I believe he said he counted 18 weights so he knew that he removed them all and left none at the bottom on the bellhousing.
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06-16-2009, 07:13 PM
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Location: Oakville,
Ont
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ok here are some pics patrickt read your post, dosnt look like my set up but same rule applies is setting it. thanks
ok i backed off the jam nut to allow the fork to move back more, i backed it off all the way to the end of the threads approx quarter inch, the pics posted here are before i moved the jam nut all the way back, and put it all back together, and yet there seems to be pressure pushing on the fork, mind you not as much as before but i still dont have that air gap as some have posted, if i pull back on the fork it will move back pushing the rod into the hyd cyl giving me that air gap but when i let go of it it pushes out the fork again putting pressure on the t/o bearing.
now my only other option is to shim the hyd cyl back with some washers till i get the air gap, you can see in the pics that there are shims infront of the cyl already, now im worried that in moving it back more the clutch wont disengage the tranny to shift ,it shifts good now when i tested it,,, mind you car is not running, would that make a diffrence if the cars not running as oppsosed to if it was running?
anyone here have a superformance with a centerforce clutch set up? does this look like your set up?
sorry for the long post, just trying to figure this crap out
Last edited by maxum_101; 06-16-2009 at 07:28 PM..
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06-16-2009, 07:20 PM
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Half-Ass Member
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA #732, 428FE (447 CID), TKO600, Solid Flat Tappet Cam, Tons of Aluminum
Posts: 22,011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra 29
I have a Centerforce PP with the weights and a new TKO600, after reading this, I think I want to remove the weights. Can this be done with the engine and transmission in the car? I thought I remember reading a thread where a CC member successfully removed the weights and bar that holds the weights via the fork splot in the bellhousing. I believe he said he counted 18 weights so he knew that he removed them all and left none at the bottom on the bellhousing.
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Your thinking of Chuck Brandt's web site where he talks about removing the weights, but I don't believe he did that through the clutch fork hole. Here's a shot of my CF setup before the weights were removed. I don't think you can do it through the clutch fork hole (and there weren't 18 weights on mine).
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06-16-2009, 07:24 PM
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Half-Ass Member
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA #732, 428FE (447 CID), TKO600, Solid Flat Tappet Cam, Tons of Aluminum
Posts: 22,011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxum_101
ok i backed off the jam nut to allow the fork to move back more, i backed it off all the way to the end of the threads approx quarter inch, and put it all back together, and yet there seems to be pressure pushing on the fork, mind you not as much as before but i still dont have that air gap as some have posted, if i pull back on the fork it will move back pushing the rod into the hyd cyl giving me that air gap but when i let go of it it pushes out the fork again putting pressure on the t/o bearing.
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I would try a couple of washers as spacers to move the slave away from the fork a little and then I would also incorporate a spring to pull the fork in towards the slave to remove all pressure from the TO bearing.
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06-16-2009, 07:29 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Dec 2001
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Before you go to all the trouble of making adjustments, I would just take a listen and see where the noise is coming from.
It could very well be that the noise is the transmission and you have nothing to worry about.....one of those "if it an't broke, don't fix it" deals.
Remember, there's nothing really wrong with the throw out bearing touching the pressure plate. McLeod and RAM both say that's fine.
I'd concentrate on finding on where the noise is coming from and if it's anything to worry about.
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06-16-2009, 07:50 PM
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Half-Ass Member
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA #732, 428FE (447 CID), TKO600, Solid Flat Tappet Cam, Tons of Aluminum
Posts: 22,011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blykins
Remember, there's nothing really wrong with the throw out bearing touching the pressure plate. McLeod and RAM both say that's fine.
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Centerforce doesn't want a preload on its TO Bearing -- if you call the tech guys they will tell you that. Coincidentally, I recetly ran across the service below having to do with a "Squeal-Like Sound Due To Incorrect Pre-Load On Clutch Throw-Out Bearing." Not an FE, not a TKO, not a Cobra, but interesting reading nonetheless.
http://project-jk.com/images/tsb/TSB_06-002-07.pdf
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06-16-2009, 07:50 PM
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CC Member
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Location: Oakville,
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ok, im going to drive the car tomorrow, too late now ( kids are in bed and starting the car will waken them up) get some heat into it jack it up again and try and pinpoint where its coming from, tranny or clutch.
now that i think about it i dont see it being the clutch, cause the noise only comes when the car is nice and hot.
ill post back with new findings
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06-17-2009, 04:07 AM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Virginia Beach, Va & Port Charlotte, Fl.,
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I don't think it's your clutch either. If you were getting that kind of noise from the clutch you'd see a little debris in the bottom of the bell housing, if nothing but some excessive dust. From your photos it appeared somewhat clean. That and the fact that there's no drivability issues points away from the clutch itself. If you have noise then something's moving in a way it's not supposed to.
Some of these old style aftermarket "foriegn" throw-out bearings don't have the durability of the original OEM units. I'm a firm subscriber to the belief that if you leave the T/O bearing permanently in contact with the pressure plate you're sending that T/O bearing to an early grave. This doesn't apply to the newer hydraulic T/O bearings. I'm thinking that's where you're at now.
Also, you need to be very carefull in moving the slave back from the clutch fork. You not only need the bearing-to-plate air gap but you also need enough slave cylinder stroke to disengage the clutch. You might even need to upsize the bore on the clutch M/C or get a different slave with less cylinder volume to get the desired stroke. Pat's idea is spot-on with the clutch fork return spring. In a lot of situations the clutch fork pivot ball and/or pivot ball retainer spring puts a pre-load on the clutch fork, pushing it towards the T/O bearing. Some clutch fork boots will do the same thing. Pat's spring should negate that preload.
In any case, I'd pull the clutch slave rod out of there and tie back the clutch fork, away from the T/O bearing. Start the car in nuetral and see if the noise is no more. At least then you'll know if it's a T/O bearing issue or not. I'll bet a 6-pack it is..
Dave
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06-17-2009, 04:15 AM
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CC Member
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TOO drunk to work
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06-17-2009, 05:41 AM
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Half-Ass Member
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA #732, 428FE (447 CID), TKO600, Solid Flat Tappet Cam, Tons of Aluminum
Posts: 22,011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RICK LAKE
I also run a spring on my clutch fork to pull it off the pressure plate.
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Uhh, would that be your $750 custom fork return spring, Rick?
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06-17-2009, 12:59 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Driftwood,
TX
Cobra Make, Engine: Contemporary Cobra, 427 side oiler
Posts: 1,850
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I have only 400 miles on my car and on a evening drive the other night I noticed a rattling sound above 35 mph, sorta like a small rock on a can. No sound at idle or below 30-35 mph and only when it was at operating temp. Having JUST finished this car and knowing every bolt and nut, I knew there was nothing that could be rattling, so I suspected the clutch/TO bearing. Tranny is TKO 600 and clutch is a McLeod from Brent Lykins with Ford-style arm and clip-on TO bearing. I was already facing dropping the tranny because I had some slight seepage of fluid between the BH and the tranny. So, I dropped it last night and after looking around in the BH I removed the bearing and found it had spun out all its grease onto the inside of the BH. I suspect that when I re-adjusted the slave a couple weeks to take slack out of the pedal I didn't get it quite right and its been slightly touching and spinning constantly ever since. The bearing is sloppy and loose now and was clearly the source of the rattle. And it turns out my bearing retainer IS leaking just a bit on the tranny so I should kill two birds with one stone on this one.
Previously it was impossible to see given the limited room between the BH hole and frame, so I was doing it all by feel. But by looking into the BH with the slave attached to the arm I should be able to get the bearing spacing set up properly now before reinstalling the tranny. At least I know what NOT to do. Fortunately I was able to wipe out all the grease as it was in a nice 1"wide line around the inside of the BH.
Not sure if this is your problem or if the noise is similar, just thought I'd post this up.
Last edited by elmariachi; 06-17-2009 at 01:09 PM..
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06-17-2009, 01:19 PM
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The weights cause no issue why in the world would you want to remove them? They are not the source of the noise in this thread. He has generic gear rollover noise. The reason it gets louder when the car gets warmer is the trans fluid warm and in turns thins out and there is less lubricity cushion to dampen the noise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra 29
I have a Centerforce PP with the weights and a new TKO600, after reading this, I think I want to remove the weights. Can this be done with the engine and transmission in the car? I thought I remember reading a thread where a CC member successfully removed the weights and bar that holds the weights via the fork splot in the bellhousing. I believe he said he counted 18 weights so he knew that he removed them all and left none at the bottom on the bellhousing.
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06-17-2009, 01:21 PM
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The gear lubricant thins as it gets warmer, and in turn the dampening ability of the lubricant between the gears is reduced and voila the noise is louder.
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06-17-2009, 02:05 PM
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Senior Club Cobra Member
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Charleston,
WV
Cobra Make, Engine: SPF 2592, Shelby alum. 527
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Patrick,
Did you remove the weights on your Centerforce pressure plate?
Sounds like Rick did so, and I also did before I installed my clutch.
I was really unsure what to do. When I talked to Centerforce, they denied any problem with the PP weights, blaming shifting difficulty on the transmissions, throwout bearings, phases of the moon, whatever. But I kept reading about people having problems. I was real tempted to trash the Centerforce PP and buy something else. But I finally decided to remove the weights from a brand new PP and go ahead and use it.
Have I had any clutch slippage problems? No, but I haven't had it on a track or dragstrip either. Might it slip then? Who knows. But I do know I don't have any shifting problems.
I'm still pi$$ed at Centerforce's "We don't want to consider there may be a problem" attitude.
Rodger
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06-17-2009, 02:07 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2008
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Cobra Make, Engine: Contemporary Cobra, 427 side oiler
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Let me insert a footnote here for future reference on my problem. Turns out we were running the wrong TO bearing for use with a hydraulic slave....we need a constant running bearing that can spin versus what McLeod supplied. All is well, correct parts forthcoming, thanks again to Brent. No substitute for solid advice and someone to lean on when things go wrong.
Good luck to OP in getting your problem solved.
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06-17-2009, 02:37 PM
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its been raining all day here so no chance in driving it to get it up to temp, i also called centerforce tech and they dont have any idea what i was talking about, about the air gap and if its ok that the throw out bearing spins all the time he just kept saying .. its up to the application,so no help there.
so i need to wait for a day with no rain,
elmariachi... so are you saying that there are throw out bearings that always spin?
also i hear alot about switching the tranny fluid over to some gm type fluid, anyone know what it is and how much oil the tko 600 takes. ?
when i let the car idel up to temp i still dont get any noise, it only comes when i drive it, so it must be the gear box and the oil thinning out when it gets hot, but how does one explain the noise going away when i press in the clutch?
as for the spring set up... i will be looking to get some springs and will need to fab up some brackets to be able to mount it nicely, dont want a hacker looking job, i guess having less pressure on the t/o bearing/ pressure plate wont hurt, i can press the fork back enough by hand to get that air gap, so i need to find a spring that is strong enough to pull it back.
thanks to all for posting,
i will post back new findings. i will try changing out the fluid first to see if that gets rid of the noise
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