Toploader vs TKO 600 Subjective Shift 'Feel' Rankings

[tkb289]

I am considering both the wide ratio Toploader and TKO 600 for my ERA 289 FIA build (mated to a 289/302).

Putting aside the obvious differences of the overdrive gear (that is a whole different discussion), which gearbox has a better 'feel'.

For a non scientific survey … in your opinion / experience …

From (1) to (10) … how would rate the ease / 'feel' of shifting for your Toploader or TKO 600 ?


(1) … feels like moving a stick thought wet concrete

(5) … about average --- OK, but nothing to write home about

(10) … feels like a well oiled rifle bolt snicking into place


For those that have experience with both … which one do you like better, in terms of shifting?


Let the shifting begin!


Thanks.


- Tim

[ZOERA-SC7XX]

I'll only say that I use a w/r toploader in my ERA (428 FE) and I wouldn't change it for that other box. It does feels like the well-oiled rifle that you mention and it's bulletproof.

[knelson]

I also agree with the toploader being bulletproof and a better gearbox. To make it shift fast as lightning as well as smooth, just add a Hurst shift linkage and keep the ford shift handle for looks. You can not beat that set up.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

I have a custom built wide ratio toploader in my 65 Mustang road racer with a hurst shifter assy. and it shifts perfectly, like a bolt action rifle.........been in the car 4 years now.....change the oil once a year.....no problems....

I also have a Tremec 3550 (circa mid 90's) in my 65 Mustang fastback street car and it shifts perfectly, like a bolt action rifle.....been in the car since the mid 90's,change the oil every 3 or 4 years, no problems........

The main difference I see is the "throw". The Tremec is way shorter distance between gears.......

I like them both,for Vintage racing we are NOT allowed to use anything but a factory 4 speed trans, hence the toploader....

For a street car, I love the Tremec and 5th gear overdrive as I drive my street car a lot and 5th gear gets used a lot.....

BTW: on the Tremec, the first 3 gears are a lot lower (numerically higher) than the toploader and great for "coming off the line"......

Just depends on how you plan to use the car.

David

[Fordzilla]

I have a custom geared toploader. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

[RodKnock]

I would put a TKO600 in every project, or if I had the opportunity a T-56 6-speed. I've owned both, Toploader and the TKO600, plus a Muncie M21 too, but I put TKO600's in my old Vette and the Cobra.

Shifting a TKO600 is like a hot knife through butter.

[PANAVIA]

Tim- You may not need to go all the way to a TKO 600 -- the 500 should handle any possible 289-302 -

- another option would be a world class T5 new from Ford Racing. (full 500$ less than a TKO500)

Just kicking in some options.

Steve

--Steve

[blykins]

Tim,

I'm a Tremec distributor. Shoot me an email and we'll discuss some things.

brent@b2motorsportsllc.com

[trularin]

I'm in for the TKO. I ran the toploader for a few years, but the cost of gas and a high gear on the freeway made it unpleasant after a while so we pulled the 4.56:1 rear gear and the Toploader and put in a 3.5:1 and a TKO600.

went from 6 miles per gallon to 22 miles per gallon.

[FUNFER2]

Too bad that the Top Loader hasn't gone through a technology change and added a overdrive.

I do like my Tremec and need the overdrive for the many highway miles I drive being outside the main city.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by FUNFER2

Too bad that the Top Loader hasn't gone through a technology change and added a overdrive.

I do like my Tremec and need the overdrive for the many highway miles I drive being outside the main city.

Yep,the're both great transmissions and each has it's place. I wish I could run a Tremec in my race car, it's a little lighter and takes less hp to turn all those gears. Another advantage,to me anyway, is the different gear ratios avaliable.

In my fastback with the 3550 Tremec and a 3.25 rear gear, I get 23+ mpg (351-W) on the interstate cruising at 75 mph....

David

[tkb289]

Brent ... sent you an email.

- Tim

Originally Posted by blykins

Tim,

I'm a Tremec distributor. Shoot me an email and we'll discuss some things.

brent@b2motorsportsllc.com

[tkb289]

Thanks guys for the input. According to the ERA assembly manual & Web page, they lean towards the Toploader & Tremec transmissions.

Other transmissions will work, such as the Mustang T-5. However, evidently the Mustang T-5 has an integral shifter, so it does not exactly duplicate the original shifter position, and the shifter sits a few inches closer to the rear of the car.

The 289 cars have the short stubby shifter that sticks straight up, so I'll probably want to go with a gear box that has the shifter is the 'correct' location.

From what I have also read .. the TKO 500 has the 0.68 5th gear, while the TKO 600 comes with a 0.82 5th or a 0.64 5th gear.

If I do go for the 5 speed, probably want the 0.82 5th gear, hence the TKO 600.

Bottom line, I need to take advantage of the different calculators that are on line and do some more math.

- Tim

[blykins]

Tim, I sent you an email back. For some reason I thought you already had a Toploader, so you'll have to ignore some of the things I said.

The T5 does not have an integral shifter, and you change it at will. The shifter location is extremely close to the rear position of a TKO 500/600, so there's no issue there either. However, the T5 isn't exactly a stout transmission and if you plan to have any power at all, I'd bypass it.

The 289 shifter position can be achieved with a Toploader or a TKO 500/600. The TKO trannies have multiple shifter locations. The only downside that is if you use the front/mid locations, it's an extra $$$ option to have the shifter placed there.

As I stated in the email, if you're going to be taking road trips or are thinking about a lower rear gear ratio, I'd go with an overdrive.

You'll need to plan about what kind of driving that you're going to be doing the most and then buy the transmission to fit those needs.

If you want to shoot me some more thoughts, details, etc., I'll be more than happy to walk through more of this with you. Let me know what the powerplant will be also.

[jeffy]

FWIW, after I did all my calculations, I opted for a Richmond Road Race 5-speed with a 3.08 rear end. With this setup, the first four gears nearly duplicate a 3.77 rear end matched to a close-ratio Toploader; the 1:1 final is the "overdrive".

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by FUNFER2

Too bad that the Top Loader hasn't gone through a technology change and added a overdrive.

I do like my Tremec and need the overdrive for the many highway miles I drive being outside the main city.

No OD type trans has the strength of a Toploader.And there isn't a "internal rail" trans that will shift as smooth as a TL.

Originally Posted by jeffy

FWIW, after I did all my calculations, I opted for a Richmond Road Race 5-speed with a 3.08 rear end. With this setup, the first four gears nearly duplicate a 3.77 rear end matched to a close-ratio Toploader; the 1:1 final is the "overdrive".

What is your "cruising RPM" and at what RPM is your advance all the way in?

You are being "comical" about the "overdrive" comment-right?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by tkb289

If I do go for the 5 speed, probably want the 0.82 5th gear, hence the TKO 600.

Tim, please think long and hard about that and talk with your engine builder about the characteristics of your engine down around the low 2000's. I was out in my car this morning (after fixing a shifter problem from earlier this week ) and I was cruising the highway in 5th gear at 2000 RPM and doing just a hair under 70MPH. All the time I was thinking how glad I was that I went with the .64 gear in my TKO600 just for this reason. Even with the big FE and sidepipes there was only air buffeting noise. It was absolutely delightful as there was hardly any other cars on the highway. That is the only thing the .64 is good for -- pleasant highway cruising; no road racing in that gear at all. My rear end ratio is 3.54 and I have 15 inch tires. This is a subject that has been discussed ad nauseam but it's a decision you want to get right the first time (along with your rear end ratio). It'll can make a big difference to the enjoyment of your car so please do your research on it before making a final decision.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

This is a subject that has been discussed ad nauseam

Yes it has.

Big blocks are different than small blocks, so you should talk to the small block owners. For my car, with a 0.82 5th gear, 3.42 rear gear ratio and the typical Yoko Avids, my big block cruises along happily at about 2,200 RPM at 70 mph. Don't listen to me though, talk to the small block people, but I think the 0.82 5th is the right choice. We can talk at the next breakfast.

[jeffy]

Originally Posted by Cobrabill

No OD type trans has the strength of a Toploader.And there isn't a "internal rail" trans that will shift as smooth as a TL.



What is your "cruising RPM" and at what RPM is your advance all the way in?

You are being "comical" about the "overdrive" comment-right?

Can't remember what 70mph worked out to. My tires will be about 26.5", so you can easily look it up. I don't plan to do long highway "cruises", and I want plenty of revs for the Webers. I don't understand what "advance all the way in" means, so can't respond to that question.

The fourth gear in my setup will have the same gearing at the tires as a 1:1 top gear paired with a 3.77 rear-end, which was a common rear-end in the original competition 289s. As a consequence, my 1:1 5th gear with a 3.08 rear becomes, in effect, an overdrive relative to the original racing setup. Sorry if that concept is confusing for you, but that is how I look at it.

[tkb289]

Patrick ... thanks for the sage advice of choosing wisely, that is crux of the question and as you state, there are a lot of variables. I have the ERA 289 FIA manual and have been poring over the various tables of transmissions & differentials for speeds in different gears and RPMs. The only thing I can't calculate is the 'feel' part of the equation, hence this thread.

One interesting part for me, is all of the choices when putting together a detailed build list ... no wonder these cars are so different! I guess that's part of the fun.

Also ... Thanks again to all ... for the posts above.

- Tim