FIA Frame survey for TTR

[Three Peaks]

Mike,
I would think that would be a perfect offering as long as some options were available such as:

Coil over shock mounting option

Adjustable suspension front and rear for the Independent suspension

A nice hard top or Lemans style top

Any other thoughts on options?

Bob

[mj_duell]

Originally Posted by Three Peaks

Mike,
I would think that would be a perfect offering as long as some options were available such as:

Coil over shock mounting option

Adjustable suspension front and rear for the Independent suspension

A nice hard top or Lemans style top

Any other thoughts on options?

Bob

Hi Bob,
We would be using Bilstein coil-overs on the 289 chassis as a standard. The front suspention and IRS would be adjustable via heim type joints as well.
We will have soft-top and LeMans top options, Goodyear tire option and a few more.

Now, for the good stuff. We are well into developing something and have been for a while. I will not go into details yet because we are waiting to hear from a few suppliers and do not have a launch date. Things I know at the momment: We will only be selling turnkey minus versions of this roller which will be constructed entirely in the U.S. There will be four available color choices, Viking Blue, Rangoon Red, Guardmen Blue and Wimbleton White to start. The first 5 TTR/FIA turnkey minus rollers will be sold for a great price (around $30,000.00), just add motor, tranny, battery and driveshaft. Regular price will be around $31,500.00 without a top. The first 5 might include a LeMans top at no extra charge to get the ball rolling. We are going to try to be as accurate as possible and believe it can be done for a great price. That is all I have for now. There has been a ton of calls and I know people are interested. I promise to have a solid production date in the next 3-4 weeks.



--Mike / Turn Ten Racing, Inc.

[ffindling]

Originally Posted by mj_duell

There will be four available color choices, Viking Blue, Rangoon Red, Guardmen Blue and Wimbleton White to start. The first 5 TTR/FIA turnkey minus rollers will be sold for a great price (around $30,000.00), just add motor, tranny, battery and driveshaft. Regular price will be around $31,500.00 without a top. The first 5 might include a LeMans top at no extra charge to get the ball rolling. We are going to try to be as accurate as possible and believe it can be done for a great price. That is all I have for now. There has been a ton of calls and I know people are interested. I promise to have a solid production date in the next 3-4 weeks.



--Mike / Turn Ten Racing, Inc.

Mike....

How about real 6 pin drive hubs? No adapters please!!!!!


....Fred

[mj_duell]

Originally Posted by ffindling

Mike....

How about real 6 pin drive hubs? No adapters please!!!!!


....Fred

Hi Fred,

I know purist would like to see 6 pin drives, but adapters would allow for a wide range of wheels and would keep the turnkey minus price in the low 30's. The hubs are expensive. However, it may be a good idea for us to offer 6 pin drive hubs as an option.



--Mike / Turn Ten Racing, Inc.

[clayfoushee]

Originally Posted by DavidNJ

You would probably need to do something to limit the tires to an early-60's spec. Tranverse leaf springs used for wheel location was a marginal design in the 50's and 60's (a time where a 12volt battery and standard heater where new things). Chassis were relatively weak, safety equipment was minimal; in a LeMans start, drivers were unbelted for several laps! And drivers died on a regular basis.

The 'original replicas would also have to be very a tentive to the other details...which could make it very expensive.

Has McCluskey made and true 289 replicas?

FWIW, the C6 including the 2006-7 Z06 still uses tranverse leaf springs, and it's a reasonably capable car. I think historical accuracy still usually wins in the Cobra replica market.

[mj_duell]

Originally Posted by clayfoushee

FWIW, the C6 including the 2006-7 Z06 still uses tranverse leaf springs, and it's a reasonably capable car. I think historical accuracy still usually wins in the Cobra replica market.

Still got your Z06 don't ya, you lucky 3%$#%%#!
I sold the C6 to inject more money into Turn Ten and get on this FIA project. Good point about the leaf-springs.



--Mike / Turn Ten Racing, Inc.

[DavidNJ]

Originally Posted by clayfoushee

FWIW, the C6 including the 2006-7 Z06 still uses tranverse leaf springs, and it's a reasonably capable car. I think historical accuracy still usually wins in the Cobra replica market.

Big difference. On the Corvette, they are used as springs...and they are composite to boot. On the Cobra they are the upper control arm.

[ffindling]

Originally Posted by mj_duell

I know purist would like to see 6 pin drives, but adapters would allow for a wide range of wheels and would keep the turnkey minus price in the low 30's. The hubs are expensive. However, it may be a good idea for us to offer 6 pin drive hubs as an option.



--Mike / Turn Ten Racing, Inc.

Hi Mike....

Please consider offering 6 pin drive hubs as on option. Yes, they're expensive and you need to keep your roller price reasonable, but I think you find that quite a few people will opt for them if they are available. Also,
you would be joining the ranks of the very few replica builders who do
offer them, optionally or otherwise. I can think of only several other builders
that do offer them, SA, ERA, SPF, Kirkham, FFR, and Cutting Edge.
"Little" things like pin-drive hubs and floor-mount pedals are often overlooked
but I think they DO have the potential to attract buyers to your product
that otherwise might pass it by.
I agree with others in this thread about transverse leaf springs. When someone mentions "transverse leaf spring," the first thing in many peoples
mind are vintage Fords like the Model T. Ol' Henry really liked them and
Ford didn't move away from them until after his death. But I think they're
vastly under-rated as a suspension system. C4 and up Vettes use them on
both ends and VB&P (Vette Brakes and Products) even offers a kit to
convert C2/C3 front ends to leaf spring. (SKU 42030) Leaf springs are
equally effective, if not better than coil springs, at transmitting suspension loads to the chassis. The question seems to centre more on the use of a leaf
spring as an upright/wheel location element which isn't done with the Vette.
But combining a transverse leaf spring with a modern unequal-length a-arm
arrangement could be very effective and while it may suffer in terms of
historical accuracy, it would retain the spirit of the originals.


.....Fred

[DavidNJ]

It works fine as a spring, especially a modern composite. However, that would no longer be an original 289 suspension. And a steel leaf spring, necessary for the original look, is heavy. All the VB&P springs are composites.

[LMH]

How adjustable would using a leaf spring be for setting up ride height?
Stance is important IMO.
Larry

[ffindling]

Originally Posted by LMH

How adjustable would using a leaf spring be for setting up ride height?
Stance is important IMO.
Larry

It would depend on the design of the suspension system. Most systems where
the spring serves only as a spring usually have a link connecting the spring
end to one of the a-arms and ride height can be adjusted by shortening/lengthing the link. On the original 289 suspension system, the spring
replaces the upper control arm and the spring end is connected directly to the upright. That would be somewhat more difficult to adjust. Experimenting with
spring pack builds would probably be the way to do it. You gather a LOT of
spring leaves of varying lengths, thicknesses, and static arches and try various
combinations of them to get the desired ride height and ride characteristics.
Years ago I did a lot experimenting with various spring pack constructions
for drag cars. I scoured the junk yards for spring leaves and ended up with
hundreds of them and eventually came up with combinations that worked
well.

....Fred

[mj_duell]

Originally Posted by ffindling

Hi Mike....

Please consider offering 6 pin drive hubs as on option. Yes, they're expensive and you need to keep your roller price reasonable, but I think you find that quite a few people will opt for them if they are available. Also,
you would be joining the ranks of the very few replica builders who do
offer them, optionally or otherwise. I can think of only several other builders
that do offer them, SA, ERA, SPF, Kirkham, FFR, and Cutting Edge.
"Little" things like pin-drive hubs and floor-mount pedals are often overlooked
but I think they DO have the potential to attract buyers to your product
that otherwise might pass it by.
I agree with others in this thread about transverse leaf springs. When someone mentions "transverse leaf spring," the first thing in many peoples
mind are vintage Fords like the Model T. Ol' Henry really liked them and
Ford didn't move away from them until after his death. But I think they're
vastly under-rated as a suspension system. C4 and up Vettes use them on
both ends and VB&P (Vette Brakes and Products) even offers a kit to
convert C2/C3 front ends to leaf spring. (SKU 42030) Leaf springs are
equally effective, if not better than coil springs, at transmitting suspension loads to the chassis. The question seems to centre more on the use of a leaf
spring as an upright/wheel location element which isn't done with the Vette.
But combining a transverse leaf spring with a modern unequal-length a-arm
arrangement could be very effective and while it may suffer in terms of
historical accuracy, it would retain the spirit of the originals.


.....Fred

Hi Fred,
I don't see a problem in offering the pin-drives as an option. I was unaware that FFR had this option and I was unable to find it on their web-site. I do want to get as close as we can as far as accuracy and I do agree that the drives will get us that much closer. We already have the AC floor pedal set-up as per original and I am working on other vintage details like offering both the FIA and 289 Comp dash. One new option maybe the modified boot (trunk) lid for the LeMans Top option. The lid would be halved and then open in reverse. This would allow trunk usage without the top being removed and still be period correct. I am thinking a list of small detail options like number lights and hood rivets is a good idea as well. We will be going coil-over for the suspension as well, but may work-in a leaf-spring option later as some seem to like the "correctness". I will have a detailed turnkey minus break-down of parts and options in about a week or two.



--Mike / Turn Ten Racing, Inc.

[DavidNJ]

Originally Posted by LMH

How adjustable would using a leaf spring be for setting up ride height?
Stance is important IMO.
Larry

You can shim the spring mount to the chassis or attachment to the upright, depending on design. Changing rate requires changing the spring, leaves (if it is a metal spring with more than one leaf), and the clamps on the leaves.

Generally, this was a poor design then, and it is a worse design now, unable to handle modern tires (which would generate enough force to bend the spring like a pretzel). In those days, a street car couldn't generate .6g and maybe not much more in braking. A high performance car, the best of the best, would be around .8g. Today big sedans do .8g lateral and 1.g under braking, and sports cars can exceed 1g lateral and 1.1-1.2g under braking.

[ffindling]

Originally Posted by mj_duell

Hi Fred,
I don't see a problem in offering the pin-drives as an option. I was unaware that FFR had this option and I was unable to find it on their web-site. I do want to get as close as we can as far as accuracy and I do agree that the drives will get us that much closer.

--Mike / Turn Ten Racing, Inc.

Mike....

If you go to the FFR website, go to "parts" and look at their IRS option. They
offer a "standard width IRS" (59.25") (SKU 12301) and a "pin-drive IRS" (54.25") (SKU 12493) I would assume the 5" difference in width is to accomodate the differences between bolt-on and pin-drive hubs. They also offer "pin-drive" A-arms which I assume are also narrowed for the same reasons. They don't list the hubs themselves, but then again their parts
listing is far from complete and/or they source them from a 3rd party or
have their customers purchase them direct from that source.

....Fred

[LMH]

I think the pin drive option on FFR's is for bolt on 5 pin adapters. The standard width is intended for bolt on wheels with correct backspacing for the FFR.
At least, that's how I understand their set up. Maybe I'm wrong though.
Larry

[Three Peaks]

FFR doesn't offer a pin drive hub. Their pin drive options are for addition of bolt on adaptors for pin drive wheels.

[ffindling]

Originally Posted by Three Peaks

FFR doesn't offer a pin drive hub. Their pin drive options are for addition of bolt on adaptors for pin drive wheels.

That's what I don't understand. The bolt on adapters would typically increase
the "flange to flange" measurement by no more than 1 inch. The Vintage adapters are .375" thick and I would assume Trigos are similar to that. So a
pair of them would increase the flange to flange measurement by .750". Normally, one compensates for that by adding the thickness of the adapter to
the rim backspace to maintain the same wheel position. So if I was using a
3.5" backspaced bolt-on rim and wanted to maintain the same position with
the adapters I would order the wheels with a 3.875" backspace. But FFR lops
off a full 5" on the flange to flange width when the "pin drive" option is specified.
So assuming a .375" inch thick adapter is being used, I would have to reduce
backspace on the wheels I ordered to 1.375" to maintain the same position.
It doesn't make any sense if they use the same hubs for their bolt-on setups and their pin-drive setups to narrow it by 5". I can see narrowing it by the
combined thickness of the adapters so the same backspace as bolt-ons
can be used, but this is far less than the 5" they narrow it.

....Fred

[DavidNJ]

FFRs are designed for Mustang donors. The Trigo/PSE/Vintage wheels have more negative offset, requiring the narrower flange to flange.

[mj_duell]

Originally Posted by ffindling

Mike....

If you go to the FFR website, go to "parts" and look at their IRS option. They
offer a "standard width IRS" (59.25") (SKU 12301) and a "pin-drive IRS" (54.25") (SKU 12493) I would assume the 5" difference in width is to accomodate the differences between bolt-on and pin-drive hubs. They also offer "pin-drive" A-arms which I assume are also narrowed for the same reasons. They don't list the hubs themselves, but then again their parts
listing is far from complete and/or they source them from a 3rd party or
have their customers purchase them direct from that source.

....Fred

Hi Fred,
When we were researching the use of pin-drive wheels on our EVO 5 frame we found we would have to shorten the arms by 2 inches in order to adjust for the pin-drive wheels 3.5 backspace and the adapter flange area, .75 inches. I have heard of many people running the adapters but can't find one with true pin-drive hubs on their FFR. If you have pictures or a contact name, that would be cool. The new TTR/FIA frame we have is all custom and designed with the intent of using 3.5 backspaced pin-drive wheels so switching to hubs is not a diffiecult undertaking, but a little expensive. We are going to offer the hubs as an option.

P.S. DavidNJ,

We are able to work in a reverse opening half boot lid for LeMans top cars. I remember you asking in another thread. It will come standard when I hard-top is ordered.

--Mike / Turn Ten Racing, Inc.

[Three Peaks]

Fred,
David pretty much nailed it. The FFR is designed for the Mustang wheels which have a backspace of I think 5" or 6" which doesn't leave much dish for the wheel.
The pin drive option is much narrower (very close to original pin drive width) so you can run the deep dish wheels from any manufacturer- bolt on or pin drive. Best of both worlds IMHO as not everyone wants to run true pin drive wheels.
For this reason, I'm not convinced that offering pin drive standard is a good option on a replica as the adapters are readily available albeit a bit expensive.

Just my 2 peso's worth- Bob