48 IDA's with EFI

[Waitey]

Had some fun over winter creating this little set up.

Not 100% finished but its looking promising for a bolt on solution.

[CSX2345]

Looks great. Nice work.

What are your plans once it's finished?

Cheers

[Waitey]

It’ll be going into my Backdraft.

[cycleguy55]

I know someone with a set of 48 IDAs on a 408 Cleveland that, to my knowledge, has never run properly. Seems he can't find anyone to tune them properly. That EFI converstion looks like a great idea - keep the throttle bodies, run them dry, and let a good ECU (e.g. Megasquirt) handle fuel management.

[eschaider]

Very nicely done, Waitey!

Is this an EFI conversion, or are you planning on running both fueling systems simultaneously? If you are planning on running both simultaneously, what is your tuning strategy?

[Waitey]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

I know someone with a set of 48 IDAs on a 408 Cleveland that, to my knowledge, has never run properly. Seems he can't find anyone to tune them properly. That EFI converstion looks like a great idea - keep the throttle bodies, run them dry, and let a good ECU (e.g. Megasquirt) handle fuel management.

Thank you, I'll be using a Holley ECU to run these.

[Waitey]

Originally Posted by CSX2345

Looks great. Nice work.

What are your plans once it's finished?

Cheers

Like so:

[Waitey]

Originally Posted by eschaider

Very nicely done, Waitey!

Is this an EFI conversion, or are you planning on running both fueling systems simultaneously? If you are planning on running both simultaneously, what is your tuning strategy?

I'll be EFI only on these. Just designing up the deadhead fuel system as we speak.

[C5GTO]

Originally Posted by Waitey

Like so:

I really like the direction you're going with this. I'll be very interested to see how it works out. I'm in the middle of changing out the EFI on my Cobra. Was originally going to go with a Weber style 8 stack but is very expensive and lead times are long. Decided to go with a Holley 4 barrel style throttle body and multi-port injection with potential retrofit to Weber style throttle bodies down the road. If what you've done works out, it might be a great option for the retrofit.

[Waitey]

Since I like a project over winter, which inevitably takes me into summer and I don't get to use the car. Here we are....

This idea stemmed from loving the look of '8 stack' Webers, but hating the idea of going to back to carbs, let alone 8 of the buggers.

So after a bit of googling and not liking the look of the Borlas, the cost of the Iglese, or the injector position of the Jenvey's, it kinda lead to doing it DIY.

I wanted the classic looks, for it to cost sub £5k (including the ECU) and have a sensible injector position.

I came across this thread on the GT40 Forum - GT40 Forum

Jasper had the same idea I did, but only got it so far before shelving the project.

Still it was a base to start from.

I ordered the same Blue Thunder inlet he had from the states



Along with some Chinese replica Webers



When these arrived I was super surprised at the quality, the castings are far better than the Spanish Weber castings! I'd never want to run fuel though them, but they certainly look the part.

I could resist a quick mock up in the engine bay

Before:



After:





Looks great but its a long road ahead.

The next step was getting the throttle linkage all built up as a test. I ordered the linkage bellcrank from Australia and the linkage arms from Webcon in the UK.



Might raise it a little depending on where I can get the injectors to fit.

Also I had a got at mocking the throttle position sensor up. I want it around the back out of the way.



So I removed this bolt from the main shaft and used this little Ali D piece, I got the blank for it from Emerald.



Quick test fit of the sensor and it fits quite nicely with room to make a bracket for it.




The next step was to try an be and engineer



Some dry shampoo on the bit I want to scan, so it’ll pick it up.



Ta da



I've still not used this scan for designing the bracket for the sensor. I will though soon.

After a lot of soul searching I decided I didn’t want to muller into my £1500 inlet manifold to try and fit some injectors at a daft angle, like Jasper did. I just couldn't help thinking I'd run into clearance issues everywhere.

So after a lot of messing, (Hours and hours of designing and measuring) I’ve made these spacers with injector bosses in them.







Will test fit with these then print them in nylon.


Fit seems good. I’ll have room to get two fuel rails between them.





My first time printing with carbon fibre impregnated Nylon.

After a few modifications to the Ender. All metal hot end and some hardened nozzles.

Wish me luck.



Some time later....

The print took 9 hours but it came out lovely and is very strong.

I can stand on it, and I'd definitely fit in the category of 'powerfully built executive'.






Tight packaging is tight.

I’ve moved the leading injector inboard by 3mm on the latest prints to give me a bit more room for the fuel rails.



Good job the bonnet has a vent…



Please to announce the throttle linkage fits... just





Fuel Rails fitted (Its quite tight)





I'm going to take 5mm off my bell crank stand to give a little more room.

To constrain the rails, I made up these little brackets.



Printed in carbon Nylon like so:





Poor photo of one fitted

[cycleguy55]

Spectacular work - I'm impressed!

[PDUB]

Very industrious. Hope it continues to go well...

[Waitey]

Big update time!

I’ve been told to get this finished soon by Mrs W.

As the office, “is a f**king state”.



Completed the map line take off and the brake vac take off.



Also finished the TPS mount





More thinking.



Hole in the middle at the bottom is for the idle control air.

Tried loads of different ideas to plumb it to an idle valve. All of them required too much hose and fittings.

MG rover to the rescue. K series idle valve bolts straight up with a little 3d printed spacer.



Fuel system this weekend:

Made a little holder for the fuel filter so it can live at the back rather than the engine bay.



Fuel reg, sensor and fittings plumbed in.



ITB’s fitted and the engine side of the loom is done. Also done some random plumbing etc etc.

I hate wiring!!!!!!!





Also got the throttle linkage done. I had to go out and buy a new slightly thinner cable though to work with the bell crank.

When first set up I couldn't get full throttle, I’ve lengthened the pedal throw now, so should be grand, and a bit like a TVR to drive, as they have really long throttle pedals.



Rails in, injectors wired up, we have pressure too!





Ecu is in the car too.



Also made a little bracket for the manifold air temp. Need to make it a little more rigid.



The ECU is alive!



Now set the crank and cam sensors in the fancy distributor




Well these HT’s are as tight as they could be!




Since there’s sensor inputs may as well used them.

Fuel pressure



Oil Pressure



Nothing is fun on a Sunday like taking an angle grinder to your bonnet.



Todays job - Mapping.

Never done an Alpha N tune before.



Far left screen - Terminators self generated VE map.

Centre screen - Old map from the Holley Sniper

Far right screen - New map using Alpha N

What’s impressive was how close the Terminatirs self generated maps was to my old one.

Now the fun of working out where all my fuel flows should go on an Alpha N map.

Things like idle and cruise will all be in the bottom rows, then it’s a case of filling in the WOT fuel and joining the dots.



The last photo is the old Sniper map flipped back to VE so you can see where idle and cruise was affecting the map.

So the little idle block needs transposing to the 1-2% TPS line on the Alpha N map and the lean cruise area needs to side in the 3-9% throttle area of the new map.


Since this all hurt my brain after a while, I had a break and did an alignment with my DIY string kit



All in spec, which is impressive since I eyeballed the re fitting of the rear end.



Oh you are beautiful. So happy with it.










Its all up and running now, tuning though came to an abrupt end, when I'd forgotten to put any fuel in it....

[eschaider]

Very nice execution!

[Gaz64]

Impressive, but I would get rid of the venturi and auxiliary venturi, since they are now a restriction for airflow. I'd make up a blocked off main jet and air corrector for the emulsion stack.
Then all airflow will only be via the stack. At the moment you have a stock 37mm choke, where it could be a straight barrel down to 48mm.
Gary

[Waitey]

Originally Posted by Gaz64

Impressive, but I would get rid of the venturi and auxiliary venturi, since they are now a restriction for airflow. I'd make up a blocked off main jet and air corrector for the emulsion stack.
Then all airflow will only be via the stack. At the moment you have a stock 37mm choke, where it could be a straight barrel down to 48mm.
Gary

Hi Gary,

I want to keep the top venturi's for the classic look. The 37mm chokes have already been removed though.

The old fuelling system is all internally blocked off.

[carmine]

Hi Waitey,

I’d like to start with great job!

I want to share my findings with everyone in the V8 Weber world be it IDAs or fuel injection. I’m sure if your into these setups you’ve all encountered the problems I’ve described bellow.

The only problem I have found with these weber intake manifold designs is that because of there lightweight design (great for racing) it is a major contributor to gasket walking into ports and thus creating un desirable turbulence as well as future sealing issues as well as being a major contributor to throttle linkage being thrown out of adjustment. All this is not good for the everyday driving enthusiasts.

This all happens because of the cored out sections that I have highlighted in red and lack of structural casting ribs going in the opposite direction highlighted in yellow thus creating accordion style flexing and twisting every time the engine heat cycles.

Also show is the modifications of filling in the cored out sections and adding structural ribbing to my blue thunder intake that have eliminated intake twisting and I can verify that I have no more gasket walking or linkage adjustment problems.

[carmine]

bump1

[PDUB]

...perhaps starting a new thread on this topic would be the best way of engaging a discussion, Carmine. Your post may not be getting enough exposure buried in here...

[Tom Wells]

carmine,

Here's an elderly thread about gaskets creeping: 390 problems | Capital Area Cobra Club

It has been a problem with lots of different engines, 351, 385, FE and so on. And if you search on Print-o-Seal you'll probably find other photos of the same problem, different engines.

The solution is to use only gaskets with a steel shim sandwiched between the gasket surfaces for street engines. Even the gasket maker admitted this was a problem.

Just using the gaskets for racing proved OK since they were replaced frequently. Street use with many more heat cycles resulted in creeping, allowing gas and water leakage to occur.

Bottom line: use the reinforced gaskets for street!

Tom