Car Problems.........

[RichMusson]

Guys
I would to make it to the cruise planned for today but………
Y’all know I have car problems. Basically it’s some type of electrical issue.
As anyone that was at the Picnic probably knows my car died on the way home yesterday. The more I think about the symptoms the more confused I get. I would really appreciate some help in coming up with a theory/ diagnosing my problem.
I am going to list my symptoms etc I would appreciate it if anyone has a theory as to the issue.

First some background:
1. I relocated my battery to the truck last spring in order to make room for a 5-link suspension. (It is a FFR and the stock location for the battery is under the floor / above the axle) The wiring etc that was used was put together with off the shelf products. It is not in a battery box.
2. It is an Optima battery.
3. It is a one wire alternator.
4. I have never had electrical problems before. However, this is a kit and problems do develop over time.

Other electrical Issues after the relocation:
1. The car began to miss a lot this spring. The distributor cap needed to be vented because water vapor was accumulating. Also the rotor cap and wire connection were corroded. I do not know if this is connected to the same issue or just a function normal maintenance requirements
2. Originally I though there may be some issue with my MSD ignition system. There were a couple of times that the ignition cut out………then came right back on. Within a second or so. This still could be at least part of the problem. It could be wiring or it could be to ignition box itself.
3. I have had to jump the car a couple of times this summer. It seems inconsistent after leaving the car for a few days. Sometimes it starts right up sometimes the battery is almost dead.
4. I do have a battery cut-off switch that I always use. However, the car is EFI so it has a ‘keep-alive’ wire with a small fuse to give power to the computer.

This is what happen yesterday at the Picnic:
1. I had to jump the car in the morning. Realize, because of I was having this problem I did put a volt meter on the battery Friday night. It read 14+ volts (?). I did not recheck the battery when I jumped the car.
2. I drove to the picnic without a problem. The car started after the picnic without a problem (well after I re-engaged to battery cut-off switch).
3. I got as far as the toll road when the ignition died. I had NO power to anything thing. NO horn, NO lights, NO battery power at all – anyplace. The battery and the wires were actually warm to the touch……..I reached under the car and giggle the wires. I could not feel anyplace where they were touching and metal or anything.
4. After a minute or so I got ignition power back. The dash volt meter was at like 9 volts. The car would not crank.
5. A number of great guys form the picnic came to my aid (Thank y’all again; so very much). We jumped the car and it started right up. I do have posts under the hood. That is where we jumped the car. So we by-passed the battery and the battery wires.
6. I drove home without a problem.
7. When I got the car in the garage the battery was warm but the wires had cooled down. I put the Multi-Meter on the battery; it read like 18 volts (?)
8. In a panic I disconnected the battery.
9. Once the car had cooled down; I reconnected the battery and put on the headlights.
10. Later when I rechecked the battery read 11.75 volts. Again I disconnected the battery.
11. In the morning the battery reads 11.75 volts.
12. The car cranks fine and starts right-up.

So guys any ideas?
1. Is there some type of circuit breaker on the MSD box that would ‘pop’ if there were too much power on the circuit?
2. If there was a short someplace could it trick the regulator into thinking it needed to have the alternator continue to put out power and actually overcharge the battery?
3. Can the optima actually charge to 18 volts?
4. Seems like if I really had that much power on the system and it was that way for several months & there was a short someplace…….. Well by now I would have welded two parts together at a bear minimum.

[CHRIS DAMSCH]

Rich,

Try replacing the ignition switch. I had a similar problem a few years ago.

[Barn$nake]

Hey Rich,
Sorry to hear you had trouble on the
ride home. No BLUE car should be down on such a nice day.
As to ideas: Here goes.
When you moved the battery to the trunk did you ground it to
the frame or to the engine block? If you used the frame did
you use some ground straps from the frame to the block?
Ground problems can drive you batty!
I have zero experience with the optima battery, but charge it
and load test it if you have the equipment. I'm going to read your post again and think on it some more. Take care.
Ed Paz

[Blas]

I don't believe you'll find the problem at the MSD box: Reason; because the entire car goes dead...(lights - horn -etc - no connection to MSD)

As I mentioned earlier the ignition switch is a good idea because it can shut down the car, But can it shut off you lights and horn? - If not - go back to the battery and grounds ideas.

When it dies again, while it's dead, gently put a jumper cable from the "-" battery terminal to a good ground and see if that circumvents the problem...if not...

I would loose the Optima Battery...(only because SO many people have had problems with them)

The MSD has an internal fuse I believe...

18 volts??? This points to a battery issue in my mind...Full charge on an Optima is 14.8 volts...

Check this out: www.vdcelectronics.com/optima/Optima-type_NL.pdf

[RichMusson]

As for grounds, yes I have several. The engine is separately grounded/ the transmission is separately grounded / there are two separate grounds off of the battery/ also the dash panel is grounded/ there are probably more – I just do not remember.

Blas, you are 100% right; I am confused as to the total loss of power.
Also assume I had something near 12volts when I left the picnic. I probably only drove a couple of miles maybe the car ran for 5 minutes or so. I had a total power loss; the when I got it back I was showing 9 volts. Wow! That’s a major power drain. I mean even when I got ignition power back my battery was drained to the point that it was functionally dead!

Blas, the idea of ‘jumping’ the car from my own battery is also and excellent idea, I thought of that afterwords. I really wish I would have tried it.

I know some EFI systems will shut down when the power goes below a certain point. It is in order to preserve the computer. Does anyone know if Fords do that?

Still I lost all that power then on the ride home – which could not have taken 35 minutes or so and the battery was up to 18 volts???

I don’t know. I will try and get under the car today and see if I can figure anything out.

[Jerry Clayton]

Rich

Sorry to hear of your difficulties----is your battery the dual post version? How are your fans wired? Do you have underdrive pulleys?How many ss braided lines have you used?

Jerry

[wtm442]

Your battery is probably going bad, and it sounds like you also have some grounding issues. Remove the ground straps/wires, check them for corrosion, clean and replace.

You probably should replace the voltage regulator. The alternator output should be a max of about 15V when it is charging the battery.

I hate electrical problems! Good Luck!

[RichMusson]

Jerry
The battery is a duals post version.

Not too sure which fans you mean; probably all of them. The radiator fan is switched using an aftermarket product. It comes on when the water reaches a certain temperature. It has an override switch which is really just a toggle into what otherwise would be the air conditioning switch. The heater and foot-box fans are controlled by a toggle on the dash.
None of the fans were running when the car shutdown.

I do not have underdrive pulleys.

The entire gas delivery system has SS braided line. The fuel pump is in the gas tank and since it is EFI there is a return line. So lots of SS lines.

[mdmull]

I vote for some alternator/regulator problem. I can't think of anything else that can get you a reading of 18V anywhere other than a misfunctioning regulator circuit. I never trusted those one wire alternator thingys anyway.

Also, try a post on FFCobra.com - more likely to have happened to someone over there

[bakbutler]

you might want to check our battery cut off switch. I have had two go bad when I was racing. Ended up using a heavy duty switch made by Pollak.
Optima batteries are good batteries as long as they do not sit for too long. They have a good cold cranking rating, but do not react well to being discharged for long periods of time (deep cycle optimas excepted)
leo

[LRRCobradreamer]

Glad you made it home OK.

I agree with Mike, only way to get to 18 volts is the regulator. That is assuming you know how to use a VOM meter.

Sorry, just had to have a little fun with you.

Best to you and Judy

Lee and Karlene.

I also think you should try FFCobra web site.

[fsiewert]

Check the battery cable clamps.....are they tight on the battery? You could chase this problem forever and it might just be a little carossion between the battery cable and the battery terminal. and its the easiest thing to fix! It can also cause the battery and cables to be hot. Corrosion = resistence = heat You did have moisture inside the distributer. Could be at the battery too.
Fred

[cdog]

Same comments as above. Check the cables, maybe take off and sand the terminals. Check the cutoff switch, perhaps bypass it.

If that's all OK, replace the battery with the DieHard out of your passenger car and see if that solves the issues. If so, the Optima is bad.

I can't see how the Optima is at 18v. Perhaps it has an interal short or misconnection.

[Rwillia4]

was the batery extreamly warm when it read 18v? internal heat will increase the voltage.

I'm voting on the regulator.

[Barnsnake]

When you got the 18 volt reading was the motor running?
Exactly what did you touch with the meter when you got the 18 volt reading? Were you touching the battery posts, or the cable ends, or something else?

If the alternator was turning and the battery cable was not "connected" to the battery post (due to corrosion, etc.), you could get a high reading everywhere in the car but on the battery itself.

[PANAVIA]

It is either a broken ground , or a cracked cell in the Optima.

[John S Peterson]

I think you have more than one problem. I think you have a voltage drop at that battery cut off switch (never turn that off before engine is off) and also a bad battery. I have nothing against Optima's, but if you can take that one out and have it tested or replace it with a known good battery. A bad or weak cell will fool the alternator into charging when it shouldn't. It can't be your ign sw because you say everything goes out. If you know how to do voltage drops, just do one circuit at a time, you'll do fine (new kill sw)

[jeffko]

Rich, if you need two more cents this is what I think and in this order.

Losing all power indicates a faulty battery lead connection. Clean and reinstall all battery lead connections and ground straps.

Being able to jump the car and drive indicates that the battery is bad and is running on the alternator. Take battery to Sears or other for load test which takes approx 45 minutes. Long term storage, like thru winter, or a parasitic draw on the battery will ruin a battery as it leaks down the voltage and causes some kind of chemical reaction (so I have been told). Usually I start my car every month and have never had a bad battery. However this last winter I did not do that and I had to replace the battery because it would not hold a charge.

Battery charged to 18 volts indicates bad regulator. If your alternator is single wire the regulator is built into the alternator itself. Your battery should never be charged over 14.7 volts. A volt meter will tell you what is going on there.

FYI Your MSD box came with a fused wire so it depends whether you used it or not. It is not internal. MSD tech has told me that an MSD box is either working or not. There is no intermittent operation possible. Ignition switches can cause all the above with the exception of the over charging. Found that out with a 69 Cuda that was previously owned by a maintenance guy that had a heavy set of keys. Had a car that would often just click the voltage regulator or even turn the motor over for just a moment. Often times rocking the car in 2nd gear would allow a good start and thought the starter had bad brushes. As it turned out the rocking of the car would reground a bad negative cable that had shorted in the cable somewhere.

The important thing about diagnosing electrical is to be methodical, having somewhat of a plan and ruling out the easy stuff first. Good Luck

[Blas]

MSD boxes have an internal fuse...unless the directions are printed wrong and the repair bill on my backup MSD box is wrong too...

[jeffko]

Rich, sounds like you need to call MSD and verify.