The appeal of modular Ford engines...

[blykins]

As a builder, I have to be in tune with the desires/wants/needs of my customers. With that being said, it seems a lot of guys are turning to the Coyote to power their Cobras.

I have my own viewpoints here, but I'm trying to be objective as I can....so I'm asking this:

What do you guys find appealing about the Coyote engine? Is it the EFI? Price? Something different from the other Cobra owners?

If I could build a naturally aspirated EFI modular Ford that made more horsepower for around the same price of a Coyote, would that be appealing? I dabble in modular stuff and currently have a Ford Racing block being machined right now for a 331ci build, based on 4V heads. Naturally aspirated horsepower should be over 500 and this engine could be finished in either carbureted (and a distributor too) form or in all electronic EFI form.

[Silversmith]

Dbl post, sry

[blykins]

What about an EFI 302 SBF that would make the same horsepower for the same money and come with a warranty?

[Silversmith]

400+ hp for $7,000 & a factory warrenty isn't bad. I have a friend who is thinking about droping one into a FFR Daytona W/frame mods of course. As the FFR Daytona originaly only take the sbf/W as it's biggest engine. With power windows & air, undercar exhaust, a true street version!

[Silversmith]

Sory for dbl post. Forgot to add undercar exhaust! As to std. windsor. You know boys & their toys. Some just have to be different.

[Clois Harlan]

The attraction for me was that it was something different. I know it is not period correct but The engine was dropped shipped to me with everything I needed to drop it into the car and all the parts are already matched up. I have struggled in the past with AC and alternator brackets and radiator hoses that fit in the past. Another thing for me was the benifit of having EFI and not having to wonder if my car was going to start this time or not. Having to spend Thousands of dollars on some shinney brackets doesn't apeal to me anymore. I am tired of bringing home three radiator hoses to slice up in order to make something to fit. Function and ease of installation interest me these days.


I told Mat last night I felt like I have betrayed you by not building one of your engines to drop into the coupe. The truth is I was given a bit of an incentive to build the Coupe with the Coyote Engine. I am not getting anything for free but but at a reduced cost and that helps me in the long run. I know there will be trade offs and I guess I am going to see just what I prefer best. I know one thing for sure, Mats sb 427 will eat me up and spit me out. I think it is a beast in shiney clothes.


Clois

[blykins]

I can understand all of those reasons. Clois, by all means, you didn't betray me buddy. I don't see it like that at all....

I can especially understand the "different" aspect. Every engine I build, I try to make it different. You all know my cookie-cutter mindset.

With that being said, if I were to crank out some EFI Modulars, would there be an interest? I can introduce more "value added" options, such as block work that Ford Racing does not use, ported cylinder heads, custom camshafts, distributor drives, and even carbureted intakes if need be.

[ERA Chas]

Brent,
Weight wise, how does this modular compare with a typical all aluminum (guessing 475#) FE, pan to intake?
Any figures for an 8.2 deck all ally Windsor?

[jualwatt]

I knew going into my built that the modular was not less expensive (on top of the $7k there is another $1500 for the electronics and more labor to install) but the draw was reliability, longevity and the ability to flash a tune for the driving I wanted to do. The fuel injection and variable valve timing on the coyote are impressive and responsive while maintaining a very street-able demeanor for daily (nice weather) driving. The only thing that took some getting used to was the throttle by wire as there is definitely a point on the gas pedal where it shuts down fuel completely on deceleration.

For a relatively small adder I opted for the aluminator version:

Ford Racing 5.0L Aluminator Crate Engine Build - YouTube

With the stronger build: better rods, pistons and valve train, after my 2 year warranty period is up or close to up next winter, I will either add a supercharger or twin turbo system (if it can be routed) with a new tune to flash for the additional bolt-ons. The fact that I get nearly 20MPG combined driving is just a bonus.

I like the new technology, but that is just my opinion and what I wanted for my enjoyment as I plan to drive this Cobra every chance I get. With 3000 miles in under 10 months in the Northeast, it is not just sitting in the garage. I am sure there are plenty who disagree with my viewpoint, but in the end it is a replica and you should build it how you want it.

Julian

[blykins]

I don't know yet Chas. The block I have is a Ford Racing 5.0 block. It's a large bore with siamesed cylinders, so I don't know where it is on the food chain. The weight will depend on a lot of other things....the 4V heads with 4 cams and all associated hardware are pretty heavy. If you went with an aluminum modular block, they usually ship by UPS ground as they weigh about 80 lbs.

I will have a number for you soon on the all aluminum 8.200" deck engine. I'm doing an engine for Cliff Rosson that's a 331ci engine, based on an aluminum Dart block, TFS heads, and a Weber setup. I can stand the block up on its bellhousing side, and pick it up off the ground with one finger in the cam tunnel.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by blykins

I will have a number for you soon on the all aluminum 8.200" deck engine. I'm doing an engine for Cliff Rosson that's a 331ci engine, based on an aluminum Dart block, TFS heads, and a Weber setup. I can stand the block up on its bellhousing side, and pick it up off the ground with one finger in the cam tunnel.

Tasty!
We used to offer an all ally 8.2 which was 375# with the carb.
Yes the cams in heads are heavy and bulky in a Cobra chassis.

[Jerry Clayton]

Brent-------

We have one customer of around 10-12 years who had a 4v Cobra Mustang----over the years----ported heads/cams, stroker crank/rods, pr charger, finally Dart windsor block/procharger----------pretty much a whole revolution of the solar system and most power/enjoyment/ease of labor working on car with the 427 dart/procharger-

An area that we find with higher hp single carb engines is we need to use float bowls with 2 needle seat to get enough flow into bowls for the engine--------

The overhead cam engines do attract lots of posers but people who want real usable power like the push rod engines for compactness and workability at the track------

Take a look at the RO7 GM Nascar and Nascar Ford stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



And Good Morning Chas!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[blykins]

I agree fully Jerry, but I know some guys get tired of looking at Windsors and FE's and just want something different.

[Jerry Clayton]

Those Supercharged Nickey Camaros are awsome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wbulk]

I am a SBF guy, and I have a 302 in my car, and have a spare one just in case. I know of at least four other cobra guys that have radical FEs that have tons of HP in an RPM range that they can never use. Most knew nothing about engines but listened to all the hype of big HP numbers. The same could be said for just about any engine depending on how it was built. Anyway, three of the four do not drive their cars because they are not fun, meaning the engine runs poorly in the RPM range they drive in most . I am considering a Coyote for my next project along with two other guys I know. The discussions we have had goes along the lines of driveability with HP when you need it.

One of the issues I hear regularly is the power range at freeway speeds with the fifth OD issue. Many high HP engines cannot run in 5th because RPMs are way to low for their cam, especially with the .68 fifth. Some can't even do it with the .82. For SBF streetability I use cams with durations at or below 220s @ .050 but then you have limits at the higher end. With the Coyote it seems you can have your cake and eat it to without getting into more expensive parts that break anyway. In a nut shell I would say the allure is driveability over a wide rpm range, not to mention longevity and mileage. But, it still comes down to cost.

[Clois Harlan]

Wayne I recently sold my Coupe that had a 408 Strokerhad . Great low end torque with 3.73 gears and very useable 5th gear (.82) with my tko 600. The very best thing I did was to put a Quick Fuel 750 Carb on it with an automatic choke. I know it is not as good as a race carb but given I only get to make two trips to a road course anymore I like the dependability and ease of start with my little stroker. I believe my old push rod 408 was bullit proof and a lot of fun to drive. I also think about 500 hp is just about right.

[andig]

Brent - There were two main reasons I went with the Coyote in my second BDR (first one had a 427R with 8 Stack EFI system). Firstly, the fact that the overall engine/ancillary package has been developed by Ford having spent millions of dollars on it should give you reliability and a sweet running system. Secondly, compared to the 427, the weight over the front of the car is significantly less resulting in a much better handling car.

Compared to the 427/8 stack, I no longer have a fantastic looking engine under the hood or 600 horses BUT it is so much more enjoyable to drive. By that, I don't mean easy as it is still very much a Cobra but the engine is so smooth and responsive across the rev range. Also, I am not a particularly skilled mechanic and the Coyote gives me that added peace of mind.

Pricing wise, whilst the Coyote looks relatively cheap on paper, by the time you have added on all the ancillaries and the additional labor cost of the difficult installation (compared to a 427 sbf) the price isn't that much different.

You also asked would I buy an EFI 302 SBF from you if it was a similar price with 500hp and a few added bells and whistles. The honest answer (and don't take offense as I know you have a fantastic reputation as an engine builder) is no because a lot of the appeal of the Coyote for me is the mass produced/up to date development and technology that has gone into it. I can get spare parts for it with ease and my local Ford dealer can fix it if it goes wrong.

Andy

[Rick Parker]

I'm with you Wayne SBF all the way. My son recently bought a ne Boss 302 which is a very well balanced car in all regards. It comes alive at 3000 and runs to almost 8000. In a Cobra I think a real well built 289/302 with a good cam, 400 + HP is really all that a person can really utilize, it results in a fairly well balanced car that can be driven consistantly. They don't get hot, rarely break, and cruse effortlessly at 3000+ RPM while returning reasonable gas mileage. Spins the tires when needed but doesn't break stuff. JMO

In a Cobra application the Modulars engines just lack soul..........