Another Wheel Spinner thread - are we all wrong?

[Snake2998]

Please forgive me for re-opening an old matter, after reading my thread below I would appreciate any counter arguments.

Two things give rise to this thread –

1. I have recently bought a set of pin drive wheels for my Cobra and when I gave them, and the hub adaptors, to the race engineering firm to fit I told him to fit the handing of the spindles based on the commonly followed advise on here. He argued that I was wrong and that spinners with male tapers like the Lotus ones should fit the opposite to what was the norm for Rudge Whitworth style spinners with female tapers which were common to wire wheeled British spots cars of the past. I didn’t have enough knowledge to argue but trusted him enough to go with his advice until I understood the science.

2. The recent thread on here about Brian’s bit of luck when losing his wheel was incentive for me to further that research.
Lucky day for Brian!!

So far I have applied my mind to the problem and came to the following conclusions – rightly or wrongly.

• The relevant mechanism in deciding what is right seems to be that of two different diameter shafts , one within the other and rotating by friction between each other, in that situation the inner one rotates at a higher RPM than the outer one unless they are tightened sufficiently to prevent any relative movement (something almost impossible to achieve in our situation). In the context of our wheels the spinner is the inner tube and the wheel the outer one driving the spinner (spinner male – wheel female) – now looking at the left side wheel when driving forward the wheel will rotate counter-clockwise and the spinner will rotate even faster counter-clockwise (albeit possibly by only 0.00001% faster initially) So if the stub axle and spinner are installed so as to allow the spinner to unscrew in that direction, it will. If it is installed so as to allow the spinner to tighten in that direction it also will. So – get the tightening direction right and it should not readily unscrew. The opposite would apply to female style spinners.

• The above would imply that the thread direction issue is a carry-over from the 60’s when it might have been chosen to prevent confusion in the pit lane when Rudge Whitworth style spinners were common enough to be the norm rather than for scientific reasons. (this thought arose from a comment in a thread below)

• Whatever the case – one better make sure your spinners are on tight enough and correctly wired because then it wouldn’t really matter.

• Putting them on the way I think they should be done might make them even harder to remove as they might tend to tighten over time.

• I will be following his advice but will leave a tell-tale loop in the wiring to see if it tightens or slackens – time will tell. If it loop narrows I am wrong as the spinner is unscrewing and if it tightens then I am right – if there is no change then I will never know – unless I deliberately under tighten the spinner to see what happens (won’t do it)

• If I am right then the only reason to do it wrong is for authenticity – and then you better make sure your wiring is strong enough not to break under tension.


I Googled the subject and found some support for my thoughts as listed below. I’m not sure if including some of the text from the forums is allowable but please read the whole threads as in most there is counter argument – I have quoted what supports my argument and what I think is reasonable.

Hub spinner direction - Historical Research, in memory of David McKinney - The AUTOSPORT Forums

1. Rudge Whitworth hub spinners have left and right and right threads for each side of the car.
2. As a rule of thumb you turn the spinner in the direction of wheel rotation to remove them.
3. Rudge Whitworth hub nuts have a FEMALE taper, and its the eplicyclic (ish) movement between wheel and hub /nut which tightens the nut as the car drives forward. Hub nut inertia effect during acceleration and braking is in my opinion a red-herring on this matter.

Hopefully everyone agrees with 1. and 2. I think 3. is also true, and it bears out by the fact that Lotus Elans undo in the opposite direction. Elans have a MALE taper on the nut, so it seems logical to me that as the taper direction is reversed, so is the thread direction.

Why then do racing Cobras with Halibrand wheels, tri-spinners with MALE tapers on the nuts have thread directions as per the Rudge Whitworth design.
Is it any coincidence that we saw/see racing Cobras with lockwire on their tri-spinners?

Knock-on wheels and hub threads : Suspension / Steering / Brakes / Wheels / Tyres by LotusElan.net

Yes the Elan knock ons are the opposite way around to all other knock ons.
It's all abit complicated to explain the physics of it all.
Basically it's dependent on whether the cone on the spinner fits into or onto the cone on the wheel.
Splined wire wheel hubs have an external cone.
The Elan steel wheels have an internal cone.
These combinations effectively have an influence over the "self tightening effect" & are dependent on which side of the car they are fitted to.
There is a story about Chapman explaining the theory of this by placing and spinning an egg cup inside a napkin ring to show the influence of counter rotation to his "lesser engineers

Wheel tech - Self tightening knockoffs

When the hubs are rotating in the wrong direction, the nut will come totally unscrewed very quickly as soon as it becomes the slightest bit loose. With just 0.001 inch difference in diameter the relative motion of the nut to the wheel will be 0.003 inch with each rotation of the wheel. You can work out the math, but with this much rotation the nut will unscrew one complete turn in about 3 miles of road travel. As the clearance increases the relative rotation increases, and you are surely doomed.