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Post By cycleguy55
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08-20-2014, 02:51 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: White City,
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Cobra Make, Engine: West Coast, 460 CID
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Side Pipe Inserts
I pulled my 3.5" side pipes apart to add a Schoenfeld insert ( http://www.summitracing.com/dom/part...3035/overview/).
While I was in there I discovered some baffles that seem to be pretty restrictive (see photo), and I think the insert already in there may be a Patriot H3430 ( http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pte-h3840/overview/) with a bunch of the fiberglass already burned away.
I'm kicking myself now for not measuring the centre tube on the inserts while I had them open, but it's no more than 2" - far too small for my 460. BTW, the flange on the collector is about 4" forward of the end of the collector, and the end of the insert goes into the collector that distance, with 4" of overlap between the collector pipe (inside) and the side pipe (outside). Interesting setup with no apparent leaks in spite of no gaskets.
I'm planning to rip out the restrictive inserts and replace them with a pair of Patriot augers ( http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pte-h3843) in each side pipe (total of 4). Other than differing opinions on the tone, it seems there are lots of fans of the auger type muffler inserts (e.g. Spiral Turbo Baffles) - low restriction without excessive noise or impact on horsepower.
Any profound thoughts before I pull the trigger, rip out the current inserts and install the augers? HP / torque gain vs. 2" inserts currently in there?
Last edited by cycleguy55; 09-13-2014 at 08:54 AM..
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08-20-2014, 03:55 PM
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inserts
Schoenfeld inserts 43035 These are what I used. I belt sanded the inside edge of the front side and the outside edge of the backside, wrapped the OD with stainless steel wool and safety wire, tapped 2 holes in each one for retaining bolts and knocked them in the turnouts. Can't give any DB numbers but it took the really ear piercing bite out of it. It has a deeper-throatier sound now that I really like. Worked perfect for me without cutting the pipes.
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Last edited by azsprint6; 08-21-2014 at 07:26 PM..
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08-20-2014, 05:17 PM
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I have new 4.5" OD sidepipes, with 3" perforated core. Really deepened the sound, cut out all the higher pitched noise, compared to the old 3" outside/2" inside ones that were on there. But its still really loud, measured with Iphone app the actual DB's were almost identical. I'm going to try sliding in some auger inserts to see if the volume will go down a notch. A pair in each sounds like a good idea.
Any idea why prices are so massively different? The Summit patriot ones are $15 each, and the spiral turbo ones are $235 a pair??
On edit: I honestly did not notice a seat of the pants power gain going from quite restrictive 2" core to full straight 3". That was disappointing, but my impression. Didnt dyno or anything to confirm.
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Last edited by xlr8tr; 08-20-2014 at 05:20 PM..
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08-20-2014, 06:09 PM
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I can't explain the price for the Spiral Turbo Baffles either, except perhaps they're available in larger sizes and probably not mass produced. The ones by Patriot seem to be more broadly applicable in 3" and 3.5" sizes, which work well for my 3.5" side pipes.
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08-24-2014, 10:27 PM
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It was really bugging me as to what's in there, so I pulled one of the side pipes again. Turns out the inserts are built like the Patriot ones, but they're 28" long and 1.625" I.D. with the open side of the louvers facing the exhaust stream. That's no typo, I have 1 5/8" pipes (effectively smaller and more restrictive because of the louvers) behind my 460! It's no wonder the car is as quiet as it is.
I can wiggle the collector end of the inserts, but they don't seem to want to come out very easily. I took a real close look at the body of the side pipes, and they seem to be swaged at the rear end of the insert to hold them in. I don't believe they're welded in, so I'm thinking of inserting some threaded rod (readi-rod?) into the inserts and putting a large washer and nut on each end, allowing me to clamp the rod into a vice and using the side pipe as a slide hammer to pull out the inserts. If anyone has a better idea, feel free to let me know.
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08-25-2014, 03:59 AM
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I think what you put inside depends a lot on the power level of your engine. At one time I had the Spiral Turbo Baffles and they did quiet the noise, I also lost a second and a half in the quarter and 16 mph. Needless to say, they are sitting on a shelf. Now I'm using the Schoenfeld inserts, with a twist. I welded two of them together and put them in. Got the noise level down, and no adverse affect in the quarter.
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08-25-2014, 09:28 PM
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Hotfingrs:
Sounds like my engine is pretty mild compared to yours - supposedly 468 RWHP on the dyno, but I can't believe it could hit that with these side pipes. Either the side pipes / mufflers were off, or that was a torque measurement, as there's no way to push that kind of flow through 1.625" inserts.
Regardless, I'm not looking for track time, just solid street performance with a good rumble to match. I'm hoping the augers will do it for me.
BTW, what is the noise level on your car with the Schoenfeld inserts?
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08-25-2014, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cycleguy55
Hotfingrs:
BTW, what is the noise level on your car with the Schoenfeld inserts?
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With the Schoenfeld I'm guessing high 90's db. Before I did anything my car measured 104 db at idle from 15' away. BTW the Spiral Turbo Baffle prototypes for a Cobra were done on my car, probably about 10 years ago.
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08-26-2014, 05:28 AM
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Many Arntz and Butlers came with augers when new. Mine are probably 30 years old. I have a SBC with around 400-425hp and a pretty hefty cam. I love the sound out of them. Deep throaty growl instead of that muffled sound you get from the glasspack style mufflers.
As for hp, I have no idea.
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08-30-2014, 11:07 AM
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Turns out I couldn't get the old inserts out of the side pipes without cutting them close to the rear end plate of the inserts. Once I did, I had to separate the insert core from its end plate. I couldn't get the end plates out, so I cut numerous radial slots from the core to the side pipe shells and hammered each pie-shaped section flat, or as flat as I could get them - creating an opening at least 2.5" in diameter. With the exception of the end plates, the old inserts came out okay, though I had to take a large rod to push out the fiberglass packing. Interestingly, I discovered the inserts were reversed - one had the louvers facing the collector, and the other had the louvers facing the outlet. Bizarre.
The Patriot augers were a bit snug, and as I've seen elsewhere, I bent the edges rather than grinding off extra material. I also used a smaller section of tubing through the auger cores to join the pair in each pipe end-to-end, held in place by 1/4" bolts through the cores. They're in now and sound good and, quite frankly, quieter on the road than I thought they'd be. When idling or at low revs they're certainly a bit louder and less mellow than the old inserts, though they tend to rattle a bit. I'm going to pull them again and straighten some of the bends I put in the spirals to snug them up in the side pipes. I'm also going to pull the tubing from the middle of the cores to allow a bit more flow, and it will be interesting to see what that does to the volume and tone.
The bottom line is I like them, but they still need a bit of tuning.
BTW, the slip connector on one of my side pipes had anti-seize in it, and it was MUCH easier to get apart than the one without. I applied anti-seize to both when I re-assembled them, and it helped with that as well.
Just for kicks I started the car when I had both side pipes off (have to do it, right?), and wow, was that ever freakin' loud. I guess I should have expected that with an open collector 4' from my ears!
Finally, I used band clamps ( http://www.summitracing.com/dom/part...3279/overview/) to join the severed sections of the side pipes. They're under the heat shields, so somewhat hidden, but I'll need to assess my options longer term. I may go with some of these: http://www.summitracing.com/dom/sear...g&autoview=SKU
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09-28-2014, 11:39 AM
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Epilogue: The inserts weren't tight enough, so they were rattling and driving me nuts (a very short trip, I might add...) I pulled the side pipes apart again (I've lost count of how many times), pulled the augers and removed the small tube joining each pair. Then I re-bent the spiral flanges to be a much tighter fit, tight enough I needed to drive them in with a mandrel and a ball pein hammer. FWIW, I couldn't believe how much crap they scraped out on their way in, even though I thought I had already done a pretty good job of removing it.
The rattling is gone and they sound great, albeit perhaps a bit 'tinny' at certain engine RPMs. Get 'em above >2,000 RPM and they're wonderful!
We had a baby shower here a couple of weeks ago and I took a few folks for a quick ride. My daughter-in-law (who took auto mechanic training at a local technical college) said after the ride that she "could listen to that sound all day". Now, that's a compliment!
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