Looking for info and advice, 427 SO

[L79v]

After 4 frustrating years, got engine back from "engine builder" several months ago. Has new BBM aluminum heads, reusing the Dove rocker arms, and the Reed solid lifter cam that were in the car when I bought it.
Valve train is noisy (wasn't before the rebuild). Drove the car to builder, next day he says noise is from side to side movement of the rocker arms on the shaft, and valve lash is correct (I'm sure it isn't).
I do want to add shims to take up excessive side to side play of some rockers, and change position of some shims to get better alignment of rockers with valve tip. Looking for any advice on best way of doing this, any particular things
I need to be aware of, torque specs for reassembly, etc. Any and all help will be much appreciated. Thank You,
Gene

[olddog]

I don't want to get into a name calling, pissing match, that may cause harm to a business that doesn't deserve it. People who do not deserve to be in business usually fail on their own, although they do cause damage to their customers before failure.

That said, so your sure the lash isn't correct. Is that an opinion, or did you measure it? It is very cut and dried. You measure it. There is a spec for that cam. Either the numbers you get are in spec, or they are not. It is pointless for you and the builder to be spouting opinions, when this can be settled in an hour or two at most. Check them together. If your wrong, you pay him for wasting his time, with your opinion. If your right, he corrects it for free in front of you and apologizes. He should buy lunch for your trouble.

I do question why the builder did not properly shim the rockers, as part of the build. I am suspecting that perhaps he did not want to use those rockers or wanted to fix them and you directed him to reuse them against his advise. Is there more to this story than you are leveling with us about? This does not add up, to me. It seems stupid for the builder to blame the valve noise on the rockers being sloppy on the shaft. He is the builder. Why did he assemble it that way, and then blame that as the problem, if it is his fault for doing so? That make no sense. It does make sense, if he was directed to do so, against his advice.

Sorry to be a dick, but your tone set off some flags in my head. I hope I am wrong.

[Dwight]

I notice you are in Franklin Tenn. just a few miles north east of me.

I have a local guy that can do the work or you could take it to Craft Performance and let them do it. Both will do it correctly.

Eight of us drove up to the Lane Museum a couple of days ago. Bunch of old retired guys on a road trip.

Eating and looking at cars is what we are good at.

Maybe you could join us sometime.

Dwight

[L79v]

old dog,
I'm sorry you read things into this that are not so. The whole thing doesn't make sense to me either. I have never "had words" with this guy, I've been more than patient through this whole experience. I went along with his suggestions, and did not direct him to do anything he did not agree with.
I won't go into all the parts that were replaced, but if he suggested something was needed, I got the money to him by the next day. When he said the noise was coming from the side to side play in some of the rocker arms, I was to save him some time by determining what thicknesses of shims were needed
and at what locations on the rocker shafts. During rotating the engine during this process, I felt a few rockers that seemed a little loose, and checked a couple with feeler gauges. Prior to that, when the shop I used to remove and reinstall the engine heard it, they checked the valve lash (did not adjust them,
so the builder couldn't say someone else worked on it, and he's not responsible), they told me the lash "was all over the place". Why wasn't this all done correctly when the engine was reassembled? That's what I'd like to know. I have been totally honest in everything I've said. I wanted a Cobra since I was 15 years old. Waited 50 years to get one, drove it a few times before cold weather arrived. As a precaution, after seeing some smoke out one pipe when starting after sitting a while, decided to have the engine gone over. Close to 5 years later got the engine back, and here we are. That makes no sense to me either, but I presented the facts as they are.

[L79v]

Thanks Dwight,
I'd like that when the car gets straightened out.

[120mm]

I'd seriously consider cutting your losses and seeing if Lykins or Craft will look at your engine and fix it.

In my research on FE engines, I've come to the conclusion that those are the only two places I'd have an FE built, or buy FE parts from.

[olddog]

L79V,

Call me jaded, if you will. I have seen several threads kind of start this way with relatively new members wanting to trash some builder. Usually with a very biased position and leaving out all the questionable things they did themselves. The internet is unfair that way. On the other hand, I have no problems trashing snake oil salesmen that absolutely deserves it. They should be drummed out of business. I just don't like to see this site get used unfairly to do harm to good builders. That was my concern. Nothing personal toward you. Thank you for responding and clarifying in a civil manor. I'm sure I had to irritate you. I wanted to see your response. You seem genuine.

That said, to your credit, you have not attempted to name the builder. I have no reason to doubt you, nor take your word as the gospel either for that matter. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, it really does sound like you are dealing with someone who may not know what they are doing.

I'm no expert on FE rocker rails. I would think the rocker would have to move a fairly long ways to hit the valve so poorly as to make noise. I would still want to get all this set up properly.

As others have said, if you are dealing with someone who is not willing to make this right, or worse, doesn't have the talent to make it right, you can save yourself a lot of headaches and cut your losses now. Brent Lykins is in Kentucky near you. I think Lance at Kraft racing is a bit further, but I could be wrong. Barry I believe is in Michigan. These 3 guys all know one another, and are pretty good guys. They have supported this site and helped folks on this site for years. They have earned the right to get business from this site.

I wish you well getting your engine sorted out.

[RUFdriver]

I’d be seriously worried about what else is out of spec

[HI Cobra]

From what this sounds like, your best bet would be to see Brent Lykins and cut
your losses. He won't take 5 years either - you have waited long enough! JMHO

[olddog]

Originally Posted by RUFdriver

I’d be seriously worried about what else is out of spec

Anybody who can build any engine, should be able to get bearing gaps and ring gaps right. They should be able to torque bolts correctly. Where an FE gets real different than other engines, would be points of concern, if this builder did not have much FE experience. Valve train is one of those places.

Another spot is the cam bearings. The SO oil system is different than the center oilers. If CO cam bearings are put in a SO, it will close off oil flow. I'm not recalling the specifics right this very moment. In fact, the whole oil system on FE engines is different than most other designs. Since this was just to freshen up the engine, the cam bearings may not have been touched. If they were changed, I would want to make sure enough oil was going to the top end. If not that would make things noisy too.

Sloppy work in general is always a concern. However the valve lash may not be an indication of sloppy work. In my puppy days, I never bothered to closely gap solid lifters on the engine stand. I just snugged one valve up, seen how much of a turn was needed to get the cold gap about right, and then just repeated the snug and loosen on the rest. That was close enough to fire up the engine and warm it up. Heat cycle it a couple times and then adjust them hot.

It doesn't sound like this was the builders plan, but maybe he was thinking someone needed to adjust the valves hot anyway. Then when he saw it, his next thought was the side to side play needed fixed first. Some people do not elaborate on what all they are thinking, just what they want to do. I don't know, I'm just trying to give the builder the benefit of the doubt, as well.

[eschaider]

I would give dollars to donuts the 'noise' you are hearing is the incorrectly lashed valves — which thankfully is a quick fix.

More troubling is the four (or was it five?) year delay in delivering the finished product to you. If you paid promptly and it sounds like in advance, then the problem is with your builder. It doesn't take four years to freshen an engine. There is something amiss at your builder.

Like several of the guys have already mentioned your have excellent choices in engine builders with Brent, Lance and Barry. There is no need to experience what you have. I would cut my losses with your current builder and begin a relationship with one of those three guys — they are excellent.

Ed

[RUFdriver]

Originally Posted by olddog

Anybody who can build any engine, should be able to get bearing gaps and ring gaps right. They should be able to torque bolts correctly. Where an FE gets real different than other engines, would be points of concern, if this builder did not have much FE experience. Valve train is one of those places.

Another spot is the cam bearings. The SO oil system is different than the center oilers. If CO cam bearings are put in a SO, it will close off oil flow. I'm not recalling the specifics right this very moment. In fact, the whole oil system on FE engines is different than most other designs. Since this was just to freshen up the engine, the cam bearings may not have been touched. If they were changed, I would want to make sure enough oil was going to the top end. If not that would make things noisy too.

Sloppy work in general is always a concern. However the valve lash may not be an indication of sloppy work. In my puppy days, I never bothered to closely gap solid lifters on the engine stand. I just snugged one valve up, seen how much of a turn was needed to get the cold gap about right, and then just repeated the snug and loosen on the rest. That was close enough to fire up the engine and warm it up. Heat cycle it a couple times and then adjust them hot.

It doesn't sound like this was the builders plan, but maybe he was thinking someone needed to adjust the valves hot anyway. Then when he saw it, his next thought was the side to side play needed fixed first. Some people do not elaborate on what all they are thinking, just what they want to do. I don't know, I'm just trying to give the builder the benefit of the doubt, as well.

I’ve seen some pretty big F ups from experienced engine builders, sometimes **** just happens, get it checked out. Ford hasn’t raced the FE motor in what, 40 years or so? I would find someone very experienced in those old motors and consider having it redone. In the meantime, adjust the valve lash and monitor closely.

[L79v]

Thanks to all who responded, special thanks to Steve in GA. Today I was going to adjust valve lash. Started by taking out the plugs, to make rotating the engine easier. Seemed to me they were too tight, especially in aluminum heads.
I used a torque wrench to loosen them, took over 40 ft lbs, except one which was almost loose. From what I've read (gasket type plugs) they should be installed at 18 to 20. Got them all out, no apparent damage. Next, I got a socket on the crankshaft pulley center nut, Although the starter has no problem
turning the engine over, felt hard to rotate. Put a torque wrench on it, took about 80 ft lbs to move it. At that point I decided to have a local shop I trust
to take a look at it, if they can get it scheduled. Will let you know how that turns out.

[olddog]

80 ft lb to turn an engine with the plugs removed seems high to me, but I cannot say I ever measured it. I know my 347 (5.0 stroked) takes considerable effort to turn with the plugs out. You are turning the oil pump, which will pump oil. You are turning the belts and water pump, which will take some effort. And, you are turning the transmission too.

You may want to have someone push the clutch in and see if that reduces the friction. If the pilot bearing and transmission are not aligned properly, that would add friction.

[120mm]

Originally Posted by L79v

Thanks to all who responded, special thanks to Steve in GA. Today I was going to adjust valve lash. Started by taking out the plugs, to make rotating the engine easier. Seemed to me they were too tight, especially in aluminum heads.
I used a torque wrench to loosen them, took over 40 ft lbs, except one which was almost loose. From what I've read (gasket type plugs) they should be installed at 18 to 20. Got them all out, no apparent damage. Next, I got a socket on the crankshaft pulley center nut, Although the starter has no problem
turning the engine over, felt hard to rotate. Put a torque wrench on it, took about 80 ft lbs to move it. At that point I decided to have a local shop I trust
to take a look at it, if they can get it scheduled. Will let you know how that turns out.

Ruh Roh, Raggy....

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by olddog

80 ft lb to turn an engine with the plugs removed seems high to me, but I cannot say I ever measured it. I know my 347 (5.0 stroked) takes considerable effort to turn with the plugs out. You are turning the oil pump, which will pump oil. You are turning the belts and water pump, which will take some effort. And, you are turning the transmission too.

You may want to have someone push the clutch in and see if that reduces the friction. If the pilot bearing and transmission are not aligned properly, that would add friction.

The valve train takes the most amount of torque to move.

Mine feels like the plugs are still in, when they are out.

Back off your rockers, where the springs aren't pushing on the cam.

Gary