Is my car a Butler or Arnzt?

[Kim Bager]

Just bought a nice Cobra and are wiating to have it shipped to Denmark. The car is bought as a Butler, but according to Ron Butler it's not made by him. It has the frame no. GR 172 and looks very much like an Arnzt. Could anybody help?

Kim

[Rickd]

Ask Ron Butler .. he will know. Ron worked for Carroll Shelby during the cobra era and later with Ken Miles when he was racing GT 40's. Ron Butler teamed up with Steve Arntz and they built the Butler / Arntz replica cobras that were very high quality. Any questions you have on the cars provenance Ron should be able to answer better than anyone.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Kim Bager

Just bought a nice Cobra and are wiating to have it shipped to Denmark. The car is bought as a Butler, but according to Ron Butler it's not made by him. It has the frame no. GR 172 and looks very much like an Arnzt. Could anybody help?

Kim

No records in my manufacturer files for anyone stamping their frames with "GR" anything. Perhaps pictures of the car, or a link to an auction page would be helpful so we can see what you actually bought.


Bill S

[Thor maine]

Could it be a Cobra produced by G&S Racing after they bought out Butler and very quickly went out of business?

[750hp]

If you bought it from Jerry, he should have the documentation you need. If not, his email is listed below...

Originally Posted by JGODDARD

Russ:

Enjoyed reading your request for information on Butler Cobras. 10 years ago I purchased a fully completed car (GR172 - stamp on mid-frame cross member - a 70s car). The original owner builder - Fred Marsico of King City, CA - was a master mechanic. Fred worked for Shelby in the 1960s, was the 1965 trophy winner at the Oakland Roadster Show, knew Ron butler, and owned a successful speed parts/machine shop in Salinas, CA. After purchasing the car I visited Ron Butler at his Ojai, CA home and shop. Ron was very friendly, gave me the full tour, remembered the car, and told some great stories about early building experiences. I was even able to get a picture with Ron standing next to his Master Mechanics Trophy from 1965.

I have since replaced or rebuilt about 40% of the car to my fit both my size and style. I particularly fell in love with this car because it doesn't have a roll bar, and looks like the true California sports car from my youth.

The car currently runs a Cleveland Stroker motor (393ci), about 485 hp, 465 torq (from Shaver Racing, Torr CA) 2V ported heads, big valves, Hyd roller, Demon 750 carb, fully balanced. Center Force cluch package, T-10 5sp, JAG IRS (3.54), MGB front suspension. Torq-Thrust spoke mags (8x15 front - 10x16 rears) with very big tires all around. I don't know how to to attach photos - this is my first contribution to Club Cobra. Send me an email and I will provide a couple of pictures. Thanks. jerry.goddard@redondo.org

Here's another post about your car...


This post is a reply to your question about the frame number and location on my cobra. The number GR172 - is welded on - (located facing forward) - the crossmember at the rear of the transmission - or directly below the rear firewall. The same number is stenstil-painted on other frame parts under the car.

The original owner completed the build in the late 70s. I have a number of photos showing the car at different stages of construction, but no original paper work. I have seen other Arntz cars but they're not the same. The car has square tube frame, MGB front and JAG IRS, lucas electric, Dalton glass window, VW door latches, alum heat shields on the foot boxes, and a full alum clowing from the radiator to the engine.

I have some magazine articles on Arnst and Butler cars. My interior has the same lay-out and stiching as later Butler cars shown in the mid-80s. My sense is the original parts & body are mid-70s, but ??????

In any case I'm a happy guy.

Jerry

[Kim Bager]

Thanks for your replyes
As some of you have guessed, the car I have bought is Jerry's, and it looks as a very nice Cobra in good shape. Due to strikes in Los Angeles ports the car is not yet shipped and I have only seen pictures. I really look forward to se it live

Jerry is convinced that it is a Butler, but when I talked to Ron he is sure it is not build in his Workshop. He has not used this frame no. (he use BR) and he say that the missing water rails in the body in engine and luggage compartment indicates its an Arnzt.

According to the papers its build in 1979-1980 and has been on the road from 1981. So this is arround the time when Butler and Arnzt broke up.

As far as I understand Butler took over after Arnzt, but I don't know how much they worked together before they broke up, and if the cars in a period was more or less identical?

I have attached a few photos if this can help.

Kim

[joyridin']

I would guess Ron Butler is correct. Mine is a very late Arntz and has a Butler interior. Mine does have drip rails around the hood and trunk, so your is probably older than mine.

[Roncal1]

Ron Butler told me his Butlers never came with external trunk hinges
thats how I found out I have an Arntz

[Kim Bager]

Does anyone of you with Arntz car know if systematic frame numbers was used?

[joyridin']

If you dig around and read the posts under the Arntz/Butler group, there was a guy that used to be on here that worked for both Arntz and Butler. He stated Arntz really had no numbering system to determine when the car was built. I believe he goes into some detail explaining which Type you have. Read some of the old posts. Lots of info.

[Kim Bager]

Surprized to learn it's so difficult to distingquish between Butler and Arnzt. I will start digging in old posts. Thanks for good hints from all of you

[Cobra13]

I noticed the bumper brackets are shaped as rod extensions, my Arntz uses a flat bar. Not sure if this is another clue, or not!

Nice cobra!

[dubaicobra]

Originally Posted by Kim Bager

Just bought a nice Cobra and are wiating to have it shipped to Denmark. The car is bought as a Butler, but according to Ron Butler it's not made by him. It has the frame no. GR 172 and looks very much like an Arnzt. Could anybody help?

Kim

Kim may I ask how did you get in contact with Butler ? I have the same story here bought a cobra as butler and it has a state identification number , I need to get more details , so could you plz let me know how you contacted Butler !
thanks

[Kim Bager]

Sorry for the late reply, I have been on this forum for some time. I called Ron at 001 (for US) 805 6496 000

[GVS]

Kim: did your car make it to you OK? I remember seeing this car posted for sale: the mag wheels with bright red paint made it memorable for me. It is a beautiful car: enjoy!

In looking at the pictures of your car, it is most likely an Arntz Type I (1974-1977) or Type II (1977-1979). The main difference between these is the Type II had a "safety cage" around the passenger compartment. Type III (1979-80) had a water drip rail and weather stripping around the hood opening.

Butler's cars were based off the Type III. Ron continued to improve them over the years. Ron Butler Racing produced 104 vehicles between 1980-1994.

[soulsurpher@hot]

Originally Posted by Thor maine

Could it be a Cobra produced by G&S Racing after they bought out Butler and very quickly went out of business?

Hey Bud.... I just think you answered a big question I had with my car... mine has the G&S welded initials on the drivers side seat mount. There are some very similar peices on the car in question to mine... do you have an idea of how many G&S built? They're of great quality also from what I've seen.