Owning old Cobras with little or no paperwork other than rego papers

[andyl]

Hi All,

Some time ago I had a drawn out discussion with the QLD Rego people about an early '80s Holden Ute I had at the time which had a 350 Chev motor installed on a Mod plate.

The car came with no documentation other than the Mod plate itself which had no details of the mods at all. My query was that as a buyer of this car was that how was I to know that the 350 was in fact the correct engine referred to by the mod plate? Indeed what was to stop me switching it to say a 427 and arguing that that's what the buyer told me it was approved for? I asked if it was possible to get a copy of the paperwork for the mod plate so I could ensure I am complying with the terms of it and was told that I could not (they did not comment on whether such things are kept or not).

So effectively I had no idea (and was unable to determine) whether i was legal or not.

It now occurs to me that I am in the same situation if buying a second hand Cobra which has been registered since back in the '80s.

If it does not have the complete details of the engineering, how do I know if it is as per the approval or not, so I thought I'd call the rego fellas today and ask about a simple engine swap like-for-like and what were the guide lines.

At the start of the call I did not mention the exact details, just generic guidance for an engine swap of a 302W in any old car. The fellow said, its no worries as long as I put an engine of the same spec and same age or newer.

Not content with the answer I said well in my case it is a kit car first registered in the '80s, that I had bought it as a registered car and that it came with no other paperwork other than rego papers, and that it needed a new block.

To this he became a bit shorter and sharper like he had an axe to grind with such cars. His answer was that in the cases like this "it would be a problem" and that when in any doubt CURRENT ADR RULES FOR POLLUTION WOULD HAVE TO BE MET! He followed with a comment that this would be virtually impossible for the car I described which I took as an implication that the car may never see the road again.

It occurs to me that without the engineering documentation for an old Cobra you wouldn't even know if the engine in it when you bought it was the approved one, the rego dept will allow you to change numbers at will it seems if a new motor is installed without any checks, and there is no way for an owner to seek any details (see previous experience) to confirm that his/her current motor is correct.

It would also occur to me that if ever it was disputed or the car pulled over and sent over the pits it seems they can just throw their hands up and say its old and they have doubts they cannot answer so you would have to comply with current pollution rules.

When one buys an old Cobra (from the '80s) is it unusual to not get the engineering papers ?

And does anyone have any experience with these sorts of difficulties with old cobras and how they turn out ? Any court precedences you know of etc ?

Surely the fair thing would be to comply with the pollution rules as per the first registration date, but it seems they are looking for opportunities to get cars like cobra copies off the road as soon as they need significant repair.

I know in many cases back then cars came in via or were first registered in WA. Does anyone know if that makes any difference ?

Thanks in advance for any advice, this has me pretty peeved.

P.S. Is anyone else sick to death of this country (or is it just QLD ?) having the worlds strictest laws on this sort of thing designed to take away creativity and liberty ? NZ, England, USA all seem to have quite fair rules on custom stuff, but not here.

[dbn04]

if the car has/is redgistered and the numbers match (vin and engine) to the redg papers and what rta has on there system i cant see there would be any problem changing the engine, like they said it has to match the date of redg, if you are buying a car and they dont match, walk away!

[Towmaster]

Originally Posted by dbn04

if the car has/is redgistered and the numbers match (vin and engine) to the redg papers and what rta has on there system i cant see there would be any problem changing the engine, like they said it has to match the date of redg, if you are buying a car and they dont match, walk away!

Or one could just stamp the required engine number into the block.....

[Gav]

Is that how you got away with that 670ci fire breathing small block in your car Ash?

[Rob. Smith]

P.S. Is anyone else sick to death of this country (or is it just QLD ?) having the worlds strictest laws on this sort of thing designed to take away creativity and liberty ? NZ, England, USA all seem to have quite fair rules on custom stuff, but not here.

QLD ? Go to NSW and see how you fare ! The car must have some history...pester the rego office and find the origin of the vehicle and then chase up the manufacturer and the original owner and then get the engineers papers. WOW this is a giant task but if you want a legit car (so you can confidently re-register the car) Take the time and effort. You MUST have an engineers report.

[Tengu]

I'm with Towmaster .....do what has to be done. I'm lucky with my '83 cobra, it came with full manual, and I have the original factory order form from the dealer (U.S.). If you are concerned about being honest or dishonest, remember these are not your agreed rules, and therefore breaking them is negligible to your moral obligations.....just my opinion.

[Towmaster]

Originally Posted by Gav

Is that how you got away with that 670ci fire breathing small block in your car Ash?

I wish it was 670 cubes Gav but its just a little 302 that was rebuilt because it blew up..... It's even so environmentally friendly if runs on sugar cane juice...

[andyl]

Thanks to everyone for the comments. Stamping another number is irrelevant really, I could drop a big block in it now and drive to the rego dept and change the number and it would then be on the rego until I get pulled up one day by the inspectors (who regularly have busts around here where they pull over every car and check them).

The only solution I can see is the find the papers one. I know who built the car (DAX) and have even swapped emails with the guy who fabricated this actual chassis, but as to who imported it to oz way back in the dark ages and got it on the road, that was well over 20 years ago now and in WA. The odds aren't great.

I have an old set of rego papers from 2004 from the prev owner and the engine number on those differ even though the one on the reg at time of purchase matched the rego papers. Im not even sure what motor it had in it originally, could be anything.

The old number might not have even been a ford number. It was of the format 6R123456 thats all I know about what might have been in it before. I don't suppose anyone recognises what commonly has a number starting with 6R ?

[andyl]

I've decided to do all I can to trace back through the owners of my car to find the docs and I've managed to contact the fellow who owned it before me who reports not having anything but the rego papers also.

He bought it from a "Car shop" in Newmarket Near the Breakfast Creek Hotel that used to hire out cars like this. He says its not there anymore but I was wondering if such a place rings any bells with anyone?

[dc7531]

Andyl, I remember this car if it is a blue one with hotwire wheels. It was available for hire through a Brisbane exotic car hire place although I think all the cars were privately owned. Around the the time of the economic downturn, it was advertised and sold at a very good price. The company doesnt seem to exist anymore but it was a similar setup to 'Sydney Sports Car Rentals'

Derek

[750hp]

Seems pretty simple to me.

Option 1. Be a victim, b!tch and moan about the laws and policies, and worry about what might happen if you're pulled over and inspected.

Option 2. Assume that the engineer papers are long gone. Talk to a local engineer about having a new compliance plate fitted to ensure that the car meets the relevant ADRs for the year of first registration. Won't cost much money, and you'll have all the documentation you need. If the car doesn't meet relevant ADRs, make the changes required and you're good to go.

Seems to me that any interaction with Qld Trans or traffic police will start with one of two scenarios. Kick and scream about the system and you'll get reamed. Show that you have a reasonable attitude and that you're doing everything possible to comply (and have the documentation to support it), and you'll be fine.

[BMK]

Mmmm and F1 driver Mark Weber called Victoria a "Nanny State"......

[andyl]

Originally Posted by 750hp

Seems pretty simple to me.
Option 2. Assume that the engineer papers are long gone. Talk to a local engineer about having a new compliance plate fitted to ensure that the car meets the relevant ADRs for the year of first registration. Won't cost much money, and you'll have all the documentation you need. If the car doesn't meet relevant ADRs, make the changes required and you're good to go.

While I didn't specifically ask this and will look into it as I'd be happy with that as an option, I dont believe its possible.

My call to QLD transport was anonymous and covered general theoretical topics only, but one thing was pretty clear from what he was saying, that either I had the original engineering papers and the car still matched the papers exactly or I would be forced to comply with 2012 standards regardless of date of first registration.

I wouldn't ***** or moan to them, and didn't even though the call was anonymous and you're right, they'd ream you if you did.

[andyl]

Originally Posted by dc7531

Andyl, I remember this car if it is a blue one with hotwire wheels. It was available for hire through a Brisbane exotic car hire place although I think all the cars were privately owned. Around the the time of the economic downturn, it was advertised and sold at a very good price. The company doesnt seem to exist anymore but it was a similar setup to 'Sydney Sports Car Rentals'

Derek

Thanks Derek, Mine was never blue (I could see the remnants of the last 2 paint jobs when restoring it) so not that car, but it could still be the same mob.

I figured it couldn't hurt to ask, just in case someone living nearby could remember it.

[Legless]

Have you checked with the WA equivalent of the Queensland rego office? When I purchased my car (in NSW) I enquired about the engineer's report and was told that as the car was built and complied in QLD. The Qld rego office retained a copy of the report on file.

[andyl]

Originally Posted by Legless

Have you checked with the WA equivalent of the Queensland rego office? When I purchased my car (in NSW) I enquired about the engineer's report and was told that as the car was built and complied in QLD. The Qld rego office retained a copy of the report on file.

I suppose I can have a go, it predates VINs though and I don't know the original rego number and that usually complicates things, but again it cant hurt to ask.

[Trickycoupe]

For what it is worth, WA transport wont release original paper work to anyone except the original owner due to privacy laws. One of my old cars that i had sold years ago to a local was since sold to a guy in qld. The only way he could get the car license transfered to that state was for me to obtain original docs from WA transport. Failing me getting them for him the car required re engineering in qld.
Also way back then, engineering was basically three inspections during the build by a transport representative with a sign off against an applicable ADR check sheet. Certainly nothing like what we have now.
It still amazes me in one country with one set of ADRs there is so much variance and no "acceptance" across state borders once a car is licensed. It really should be down to safety checks and rego details being correct.

[Gav]

They couldn't make you comply with 2012 ADRs as the age of the car will be on file or can be proved since you have some history of the car even without the papers.
As I see it, drive the thing and if you get pinged worry about it then OR get it re engineered.
Don't loose sleep over it.

[andyl]

Originally Posted by Trickycoupe

For what it is worth, WA transport wont release original paper work to anyone except the original owner due to privacy laws.

Thanks Ricky, and totally agree on the lack of recognition of compliance to a federal standard if done in another state, totally ridiculous.

Despite what you are saying about me not being able to access it, it is useful to know that they are at least kept on file somewhere. I guess there is a chance that QLD has a copy also when it was first registered in QLD as the owner at that time may have had to produce a copy then.

Thanks again,

-Andy