Clutch HELP!

[Lightingrod]

I'm converting from auto trans to a TKO-600 5sp. The manual I have has precious little information on setting up the clutch cable. I have the CRII pedal assemble and it says use a Ford cable and little else. I checked all the photos and NONE even showed where to drill the hole! I'm using a Chevy Monza bell housing but pretty much all but attaching the cable to the clutch fork should be the same.

Any tips/suggestion will be greatly appreciated!

Tks Al

[Tazmania2]

Al,

If you don't get your answers here, call me 231-869 4608 (EST). I could type it out in five or more pages, or I can explain it to you in a 5 minute phone conversation.

DV

[RICK LAKE]

Lightingrod Hey Al, You might be better to go with a hydro setup for the long haul. Cables stretch over time. It's easy to install and setup. Easier on the leg also in traffic. Rick L.

[cobraman428]

I would also suggest staying away from a clutch cable system. I would install a hydraulic setup. Go out and purchase a master cylinder and slave cylinder and some brake line. Research though on the correct bore diameters or each as that is important. Also you will need to get the length of travel set up correctly on the clutch. Good Luck.

[Tazmania2]

All,
Rick has an excellent point. Cost very closely related. Labor same comparison.
Negatives, hydraulic cylinders sometimes will give an owner fits due to leaking. IF going Hydraulic don't skimp on the cylinder! (All part of the (to be?) phone call.

Install Headaches : One aspirin with/for Hydraulics, CR's Mechanical from scratch " 2 to 4.
DV

[bobcowan]

Personally, I prefer the cable. It's simple, inexpensive, and dead on reliable. They were put in millions of fords over the years, and how often do you hear of a Ford cable breaking?

Once you install the pedals, drill the hole so it lines up with the quadrant - not rocket science there. Use a quality Ford cable; no Autozone stuff there. And use an adjustable quadrant from any number of places. No complicated brackets to build, no plumbing, no fluids to leak.

[joyridin']

I do not think the cables broke because Ford started using those cheap self-adjusting plastic gears that would strip out all the time.

Whoever came up with that idea should have had their head examined.

[Tazmania2]

CR does not use the FFR-Ford adjustable quadrant/cam. Plenty of Cables wore out or simply broke in a CR purely because if mis-alignment.

Note: The body/pedal setup can be modified for the Later Ford cables with quadrant, but changes need to be made. The plain cable - properly installed should last every bit of 100,000 miles.

DV

[Dwight]

I have 42,000 miles on my Ford cable. All my buddies with Hydraulic clutches have had problems.
Some carry spare slaves in the trunk.
I have a small pile of slaves and throwout bearings in the back room on a shelf.

Yep I like my trouble free cable.

Dwight

[RICK LAKE]

Hey guys both cable and hydro will work for years if setup right. This is where the problem of failures start
Cable problems, I have had them in my CJ5 jeeps from 1972. Every 12-15,000 miles it got a new cable. Old cable would bind. I could lube the carp out of it and it didn't last any longer. Cables don't like bends. I have not seen a cable without a 90 or 180 degree bent in a car or truck. I tryed every cable lube on the market back then. The rubbing inside is just that and over a couple hundred engagements cable wears the inner casing. What extends a cable life is running a light pressure plate and having low torque/hp motor. I started with 1,800lb clutches and smoked them. I ended up running 2,400 pound clutches and eating cables every 6 months. I drove year around, NE area we get everything, salt, snow, rain, mud running, sand beach running. All this caused cable failures. I ended up going to a hard linkage and removed the cable. Down side to this was it would raise the body of the jeep when it was engaged. I chained down the body to stop this.
Hydro clutches Have had them in the cobra for 15+ years. Failures, First one I installed lasted about3 minutes. Come to find out that there is a ton of vacuum in the bellhousing with the motor running. It sucked the hydro lines right into the back of the pressure plate and rubbed a hole through both lines. OOPS #1. Welded a plate inside to hold both lines from moving. New problem was now have to put trans and bell on motor at same time. Got it done, Pain in butt. Hydro bearing adjustment for correct distance to fingers on plate. It was too long of a throw. Pulled out trans and bell and added spacer. Seamed ok, come to fine out the bearing was rubbing on the pressure plate fingers. The other issue was engagement of the clutch. I got a Centerforce with the weights that slide to put more load on the fingers and stop slipping under hard WOT. This clutch turned out to be a nightmare and would lockup over 3,000 rpms and couldn't shift the car. The clutch pedal would go in but no release. There was no air in the system or leaks. The bearing couldnot move the fingers. Final fix for this was removed the weights, and the clutch worked good for a while. problem was too much torque from motor and it would slip. This was with a 452 motor and 448ft of torque. I did let a leak from the hudro bearing after 1 season of running. I think I caused the damage from clutch issues. I went back to The ERA setup. The biggest thing is getting a straight line from the slave to the fork inside the bell. Shims and bending the fork a little trued up this. I have the same master and slave in the car for 12 years and no problems.
I built a 484 motor with the 600/500 range at the crank. The single disc clutch doesn't hold the power of this at all. Bylkins sold me a street twin setup for the car. I can't tell you how easy it is to drive. feed back is verygood, lite pedal, Hydros work great. Did add a pedal stop to the clutch pedal as to not over extend the slave or damage the seals in the master. I have 1" of free play at the top, complete engagement of clutch and pedal tops about 1" from the floor. I do flush out the fluid once a year and keep it fresh. The twin is going on 5 years. No problems.
If you have the money and a strong motor over 400/400 range you really should look into a street twin. The added weight is worth the easy feel and control. 1 side note and VERY IMPORTANT, break in the clutch as told. Just like brake pads. Multi disc used to be noisy, not any more.
Cable or Hydro TOB, I think I will stay with hydro. Cables are great if no bends but will fail like hydros some time. With Hydro, use the CORRECT fluids. You can use Brake fluid #3 but There is a differents between them. We have clutch fluid for GM cars that is just for clutches. Old days you used brake fluid but think they change the formula. Other thing is brake fluid collect moisture and again should flush system once a year. Good luck to all. Rick L. Ps how many of you have lost their parking brake cables from age, rusting out, seizing up, or non use?? Clutch cable is the same thing but a larger cable. No fix for these (parking cables) except to replace if not used. Some GUYS are LUCKY, I'm not one of them. Dwight you are

[Lightingrod]

Guys thanks for all the input! It seems about 50/50 on cable/hydro. Right now I'm thinking of giving the cable a shot! I have some friends with pretty hot old Mustangs they seem to like the cable (after-market) setup well enough! I talked to Tasmania2 and he had some good tips on getting it setup right!

I was planning to use a street/strip single disc clutch but may take a second look at a dual disc setup? The SBC 388 should be making WELL over 500 hp/tq + an NOS Top-Shot!

I hope to get real busy on this in the next couple of weeks!

Thanks again,

Al

[Lightingrod]

Dang it, dang it, dang it! I'm back on the fence again! Stopped by my friend Mark's machine shop today. I was going to order the flywheel & clutch. Mark did all the machine work on my 388 and he didn't like the Monza bell-housing idea at ALL! His concern is exploding clutch, mine is more about breaking the bell-housing! Either way with only a little bit of aluminum and fiberglass between a 6800 rpm clutch and my feet, it would be a bad day for old Al!

I have did a test fit for the new pedals, have the parts to convert to manual brakes and managed to pickup a NOS TopShot kit! I'm going to look at modifying an after-market steel bell-housing for pull cable or going to hydraulic clutch!

Al

[RICK LAKE]

Lightingrod Al There are 10 ways to skin a cat. If you want to run a Monza bell that get a balistic blanket to warp around it.
If you are running a 500/500 motor WITHOUT NOS this is possible. You hit that little button and it's bang,bang time for the drive train. Clutch wise this setup is going to need a heavy single disc setup with a solid disc. A spring hub is not going to last long under this abuse. Quicktime or Lakewood period. If you don't like walking on your own two feet than go for what ever. With Quicktime get the spec one that is NHRA approved, tested, and certified. Should be stamped with a silver and black sticker on the bell.
Put the hydro clutch setup in it with a7/8" master and 3/4" slave and be done with it.
As for clutch a 2 or 3 disc is the way to go. If you are going to abuse and high rev this motor a triple disc would be better than a double disc. Same clamping load, less weight to turn, same setup needed. Rick L.
Ps look for the pictures of Kirkhams custom bellhousing and the setup for the fork on a Lakewood. It's simple welding a plate for a mount point. I have nothing but Lakewoods on all my shifter cars and only have blown 1 disc. everything stayed inside the bell. No damage to engine block either. This was with a 40# flywheel. No 100% sure you Quicktime will take the same explosion. lakewood test with a 40# flywheel blowing up. No sure if Quicktime has the same weight tested. Quick time has closer specs to the clutch and this stops that running start of pieces trying to get out of the bell. Would have to ask QT what weight flywheel is used in their test. later

[Double Venom]

I d0 like Ricks thoroughness!
DV

[MaSnaka]

I am currently waiting for the parts to arrive so that my conversion can be made from a toploader to the TKO600 to gain the advantage of a true overdrive .64 5th gear. I am also eliminating my internal hydro throw out bearing and installing an external slave and fork to my Lakewood. It will be tight but should fit like a glove. Mike Forte has a nice looking package that should install with some minor mods to the bell. I will post results soon. Not that I ever plan to explode my clutch and fly wheel, but the boat anchor of a Lakewood does give me piece of mind.
John

[jhv48]

Originally Posted by MaSnaka

Mike Forte has a nice looking package

Boy has this forum suddenly taken a turn.

Sorry, it's raining here and I'm bored!

[MaSnaka]

LOL...Taken out of context that doesn't sound good. I swear I have never met the man in person. But you knew what I meant.

Raining here too.

John