chassis VIN

[Sycraft]

new to me CRII roadster, only have the Michigan applied VIN in the firewall, is there a place where CR put their identifier as well?

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Sycraft

new to me CRII roadster, only have the Michigan applied VIN in the firewall, is there a place where CR put their identifier as well?

Chassis VIN is irrelevant once a state affixes their own to the chassis.

Just saying

[Sycraft]

I realize that, but would like to know what number this build was.

[G_Edmonds]

CR kits did not come with VINs. Possible exception would be the complete cars. I think Don Scott built a few.

[sunman]

I have a 1996 kit that came with a decal that I think matches MSO number. There is a previous post here about what MSO number info is. It’s not a VIN number and this is kinda a vague subject I’ve been checking too

[74proii]

Normally the MSO is just the paperwork required to obtain the VIN. Normally unless it is sold as a "roller" life Superformance and Shelby it won't have a VIN. Each state has their own rules, can be quite complicated. By what it sounds like you are just curious to what is the XX out of xxx number of your car. You won't get that, especially after multiple bankruptcies and changes of ownership, let alone not so complete paperwork, even when they were the original company.

[sunman]

Page 5, look up “Vin decoder”. It is new info to me I’ve been looking for years

[74proii]

Is this the one from "Merlin69"?

"Hello
I found a VIN decoder from Classic Roadsters,
maybe someone can have interest :

Digit #1 = 4

Digit #2 = C

Digit #3 = R

Digit #4 = engine types
A = VW
B = Ford 4 cyl
C = Ford 6 Cyl
D = Ford 8 Cyl
E = Chevrolet 4 cyl
F = Chevrolet 6 cyl
G = Chevrolet 8 cyl
H = Others

Digit #5 = transmission types
A = Manual
B = Automatic

Digit #6 Model
A = Duchess
B = Duke I (leaf spring)
C = Duke II (coil spring)
D = Marlene I 500K (leaf spring)
E = Marlene II 500K (coil spring)
F = Marlene I 504K (leaf spring 4 pass.)
G = Marlene II 504K (coil spring 4 pass.)
H = Saxon
L = Sebring
J = MX
K = Cobra

Digit #7 = type
1 = KIT
2 = Custom Glider
3 = Factory complete / Rolling chassis

Digit #8
1 = (factory complete car)
2 = (kit)

Digit #9 = check digit

Digit #10 = year (A=1980...)

Digit #11 = Assembly plant location F=Fargo

Digit #12-17 = sequence number of car"

[sunman]

Yes. This would be for the first Classic Roadster company. MSO/ decal number is in 17 digit Auto VIN format. It matched your boxes of parts.
I picked up phase 1 in Fargo on Feb 3 1993. I have a 93 chassis and 96 body/MSO.
Body’s and chassis’s were stacked up at “shipping company” down the road from the factory. You paid $300 extra for boxing and packing and picked up your car and boxes there!!!

YOU GOT THE CHASSIS OR BODY ON TOP OF THE STACK. That’s why no number on chassis or body. MSO numbers were assigned to kits as they sold.

They started at 000001 for ALL TYPES OF KITS each September. They claimed to make about 80 per month. 4CR prefix before 92 “reorganization “ 4KC after

[Beer4myhorses]

Hi to all,
I'm new to the Forum and new owner of a Classic Roadster 427. I recently bought the car in Indiana and drove it down to Miami where it's waiting to be shipped to France, where I live.
I read the thread about the VIN and I have a question. The VIN decoder provided by "Merlin69" is great. Many thanks for that.
It says that the 10th digit gives the year (A=1980...) But on my car, the certificate of origin and the plate show N, which should give 1993 while the date on the certificate is Feb 1992.
The Prefix is 4CR which according to "Sunman" is before 1992 reorganization.
Any idea what would be the explanation ? Thanks for your help and have a great day.

[sunman]

I, O, Q and V are not normally used in a letter numbering system. They skipped “I”
Classic shut down from late February 1993 until summer 1996. The 4KC started in 1996.
My Cert of Origin is dated July 31 1996 but sequence number is only 000068. The year is “T” which is 1996 when you skip letters I, O and Q.
I’ve checked a couple dozen Cert of Origin numbers that were used as VIN for cars in posts and ads and the decoder is accurate.

It says on the certificate “Vehicle Identification Number”, it’s 17 digits long and is used as such in many states.

Of course Classic Roadsters said there was no records.
THEY WERE LIARS

Classic was owned by Gary Rutherford, Duchess Capital, Don Scott and is now owned by Ryan Martens.
Ryan bought it from the bank it’s a real company not bankrupt.
I own the rights to the hardtop, it’s in redesign. Robert Haugen owns the Sebring, it’s real not bankrupt.

[Beer4myhorses]

"Sunman", thank you so much for the info. Things are much more clear to me now.
I live in France, I've been lucky enough to buy a Classic Roadster Cobra and to find the Certificate Of Origin in the trunk.
Now I'd like to buy another one. I found a Cobra and a Sebring, but without a certificate of origin, the custom will charge me as for a normal car which means 10% custom fee + 20% VAT. And in a second time I won't be able to get it registered.
Is there any way to get in touch with Ryan Martens ? He may have access to some archive and he could even sell copies of Certificates of Origin ?

[sunman]

Ryan does not have any certificate of origin. Without one I would pass on buying a car.
It’s very good you do have one for the Classic.

[twobjshelbys]

There is ONE and ONLY ONE "MSO" per vehicle. It is essentially "title number zero". It goes with and to the first owner. It cannot be replaced.

Before doing anything with Ryan read his sordid history here.

Being in France with import date limits I would avoid a kit car that doesn't have a title issued after the car was completed. Can you even import a kit (completed or not) without an engine?

[sunman]

History lesson about Classic Roadsters
Robert called and talked to the banker who handled the bankruptcy
Ryan got everything for $1 because it was on the way to the dump
He has flatbeds and saved the bank a lot of work and money
He was the only person to show interest
All the Sebring stuff and the Cobra hardtop mould are in the States now

[Beer4myhorses]

Guys, thqnks so much for the precious information.
I missed a CR from 1991. While the negociation was well engaged, the guy sold it to someone else.
I'm in touch with another seller for another CR, with a 355 Chevrolet engine.

Twobjshelbys, indeed it's not an easy thing to import a Kit Car.
There are 2 major points :
1) the custom will consider as a collector car and charge reduced taxes (200 euros custom taxes instead of 10%, and 5,5% VAT instead of 20% !) if :
-the car is more than 30 years old
-the car hasn't been significantly modified (it seems that brakes and suspensions are acceptable)
-the car is not produced anymore

To prove the age of the car is the big challenge, because they won't accept a title showing 1965 for a replica, so we need to prove when the car was built or registered for the first time (that's why the info you gave me about the VIN decoder are so precious to me ;-)

2) The registration will be possible only if the French collector car association considers the car as a collector and delivers a certificate. To obtain it, you need to prove again that the car is 30 years old and hasn't been modified, you also need to prove that the engine is also more than 30 years old. Then the car must undergo a technical check at an approved center then you can get the registration.
Without that you have a 400 horse power flower pot !
What a nightmare ! But I think it's not really easier to import a car in the US, isn't it ?

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Beer4myhorses

Guys, thqnks so much for the precious information.
I missed a CR from 1991. While the negociation was well engaged, the guy sold it to someone else.
I'm in touch with another seller for another CR, with a 355 Chevrolet engine.

Twobjshelbys, indeed it's not an easy thing to import a Kit Car.
There are 2 major points :
1) the custom will consider as a collector car and charge reduced taxes (200 euros custom taxes instead of 10%, and 5,5% VAT instead of 20% !) if :
-the car is more than 30 years old
-the car hasn't been significantly modified (it seems that brakes and suspensions are acceptable)
-the car is not produced anymore

To prove the age of the car is the big challenge, because they won't accept a title showing 1965 for a replica, so we need to prove when the car was built or registered for the first time (that's why the info you gave me about the VIN decoder are so precious to me ;-)

2) The registration will be possible only if the French collector car association considers the car as a collector and delivers a certificate. To obtain it, you need to prove again that the car is 30 years old and hasn't been modified, you also need to prove that the engine is also more than 30 years old. Then the car must undergo a technical check at an approved center then you can get the registration.
Without that you have a 400 horse power flower pot !
What a nightmare ! But I think it's not really easier to import a car in the US, isn't it ?

So the engine itself has to be over 30 years old too? Does that literally mean 30, or will a current facsimile, e.g., a Dart 351 block, or a Shelby Engine side oiler which are made to the original look and feel (except that the Shelby is aluminum) be accepted? I had a similar thing in Colorado - if my engine was accurate to the old format then it was accepted (this for emissions) but if it was, for example, a modern engine in an old Cobra, e.g., now the Coyote, then it would have to meet emissions of that year.

But according to the press I see, France pretty much wants to take away your internal combustion engine from you. I'm sure the rural areas and farmers will just love having to go back to horses and bicycles. They'll have to have a "Horse Tax" to clean up all the doo-doo on the streets.

[ScottR]

Interesting. I ordered my 427 kit in 1996, the number was 4KCDBK122VF000190. Sold it, I'd love to know where it is today.