FE assembly questions

[MOTORHEAD]

Finally getting around to final assy of my Shelby alum block, 428 cranked engine that I bought a fluid damper for, then I got to wondering if the stock damper can be replaced with the fluid one without re-balancing the whole thing ? ( rotating assy has been balanced, and is installed) ALSo, the fluid damper is a C.a.T. (Cal. Auto. Transpeed HBF-390 ) Has anyone had any experience with this brand ?

Also I'm wondering the pros and cons of running without the windage tray in the Aviad road race oil pan.
All info appreciated.
Ted

[Clois Harlan]

If your balancer is balanced to 28 0z and your engine is balanced to 28oz it shouldn't make any difference.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by MOTORHEAD

Finally getting around to final assy of my Shelby alum block, 428 cranked engine that I bought a fluid damper for, then I got to wondering if the stock damper can be replaced with the fluid one without re-balancing the whole thing ? ( rotating assy has been balanced, and is installed) ALSo, the fluid damper is a C.a.T. (Cal. Auto. Transpeed HBF-390 ) Has anyone had any experience with this brand ?

Also I'm wondering the pros and cons of running without the windage tray in the Aviad road race oil pan.
All info appreciated.
Ted

I would change the balancer, but I would not use a fluid style balancer. I prefer quality balancers like Romac, ATI, TCI, etc.

You can swap balancers without worrying about upsetting the overall balance. All FE's have 0 balance harmonic balancers....it's just the flywheel/flexplate that were weighted.

As for the windage tray....

Pros...you may gain a few ponies....maybe not. It may help windage, and then again, it may not.

Cons...the price of the windage tray, an extra gasket to worry about.

[philminotti]

I'd listen to brent. Fluid dampers can be bad news, but not always. If you afforded the shelby block, you could spring for a nice bhj damper although there are several other lower priced , quality non-fluid units. I run a tray. Extra gasket, extra rtv, extra opportunity for leaks, but again, if u have that beautiful aviaid pan, why not use it?

[RICK LAKE]

Motorhead Ted I have been running a fluid for 15 years and no problems. There are a couple of things with your setup, The WHOLE rotating assembly should have been done as a whole. This is dampener,spacer, pulley, crank, assembly weight of rods, pistons,pins, oil, and bearings, and flywheel. All should have been indexed. This will give you the best setup and least vibrations and harmonics from the motor.
The only down side I have found with ATI is the bolt holes for the pulley are for BBC and not FE. There is a little note in the instructions to tell you that, AFTER you own the dampener. Other side note, with a fluid dampener and running and aluminum block motor, allow both to warm up before driving. Coolant temp will raise quick to 180+f but oil temp takes about 2-3 minutes. I have 2 shelby blocks and have been very happy with them.
I run a windage tray in my motor,(482). I don't think it is needed if you are going to just street drive the car. It's alot more important to have good oil pressure and run 7-9 quarts of oil in the motor. I have heard that windage trays can give you a 2-15 hp pickup. This is on motors with no lower side skirts. Hemi and FE both have long skirts. For the most part the oil ends up back in the pan without alot or airation to it. Other thing is install a preoiler for the motor. Accusump sells a nice 2-3 quart setup. This will give you a 30-40 psi buildup before starting the motor. Will also save motor on high sweeping "G" turns. Just a thought. Good luck with build Rick L. Ps flywheel was balanced and indexed to crankshaft?

[DanEC]

I think FE flywheels are always indexed to the crank if I'm not mistaken, by the bolt pattern. They should index the pressure plate to the flywheel.

[MOTORHEAD]

THanks for the replies guys. Looks like It's ok to change dampers, but no one has had experience with CAT products ? Looks like they've been around as a primary mfr for eng components for some time and now have some mfd in china, like many others.
Rick: the whole rotating assy had been balanced when I changed from stock to alum flywheel.

[Barry_R]

I have never heard anything positive about CAT stuff....

[thndrrd]

If you haven't already purchased you oil pan, you might want to check out Kirkham's billet pan. They use a scraper system instead of a windage tray. This is a total two piece billet pan that can be ordered for dry or wet sump. This will eliminate the cracking potential of the AVAID pan. It also uses "O" ring technology for a leak-less seal. In addition to being stronger at about the same weight, it looks a hell of a lot better too. If I have to replace mine, no question, it will be Kirkham's.

[Bernica]

As Rick said above, balance everyting that turns. For me, that included the pressure plate that they ended up grinding a little here and there to get with the rest of of the numbers. I am running a Romac SFI certified here for the damper...

[Rick Parker]

I thought pressure plates were "0" balanced so as not to upset the internal balance when changed if necessary??

[MOTORHEAD]

I did a search of the FE talk forum before starting this thread, and found this from 2008 posted by Jerry Clayton:"----everytime I seea broken crank it has a fluiddamper on it."
QUEstion for Jerry: do you mean a fluid "TYpe"damper, or the brand name?

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by Rick Parker

I thought pressure plates were "0" balanced so as not to upset the internal balance when changed if necessary??

Rick, I stand corrected. Mine was balanced separately. My bad.

[RICK LAKE]

MOTORHEAD. Ted To start with EVERY application and every motor is built different. I do know that it takes about 2-3 minutes before my dampener stops my motor from having a vibration. There is a small note in the info about warming up the motor before driving or racing. Is thgis vibration good for a motor, NO, but has done no damage I can find in. ATI and one of the other companies will come to your shop and custom tune the dampener to the motor. The cost is about 1K for the custom work.
Jerry Clayton, Pro FE racer for 35+ years and running FE motors. He Turns his motors at 9,000+ rpms. Does he see crankshafts breaks, sure but lets look at why. I have not looked at the NHRA book in many years but Lightening the cranks, cutting down weights, having 3 bolts hold a flywheel on running SBC rods of 2.00" or even 1.88 honda rods and bearings in these motors. the tricks are endless to bottom ends. Jerrys motors run 100-200 1/4 mile passes and then are rebuilt, replaced, or rebearing and rods and rings for another 100 pass setup. Bottom line high rpm motor, short life and single purpose.
Your motor will be a street motor with maybe a 6,500 rpm limit. You hope for many years of motor life. I have run a 428 crank for 7 years in my shelby block. The crank shaft is a 10/10 job with a complete bottom end assembly balance. I didn't have the disc or pressure plate involved. 98% of the time this motor is running up and down the rpm limit. If I had a choice a steel crank IMO it is worth the extra money if you make mistakes on either shifting and banging the rev limiter, missed shifts, or just over reving the motor. If you are careful and limit motor to 6,000 rpms, a cast crank that is properly setup will also last for years and is more flexable for abuse than forged. IMO the steel from China is crap. They are running at specs just over the min for material composition, rockwell and hardness. The parts look proper and finished but the truth is weak metal. With a good oiling system and not a lot of abuse these parts will hold up fine. Inovative west build some of the best dampeners with a price. The question is how high an rpm are you looking to turn, how much abuse, and how much money are you looking to spend. A stock cheap rubber dampener last on a avaerage motor over 100K miles and doesn it's job. I don't think there are alot of cobra motors with 100K on them and not rebuilt. You might p-m Barry R and ask about the CAT dampeners and what problem he MIGHT have had. Keep asking questions Ted, we all learn something new. Rick L.

[MOTORHEAD]

Rick; thanks for your input.
Barry R. has already voiced his opinion, which is good enough for me.
I will be looking for a non-fluid type.
I'll make my final decision re; the tray when I finish the bottom end.
For now I'll finish the intake mod (for future F.I., vac plenum) and top end.
Got the rocker shims and got all the rockers lined up on stems. Next is pushrod clearance.
Y'all have a fun 4th
Ted

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by MOTORHEAD

Rick; thanks for your input.
Barry R. has already voiced his opinion, which is good enough for me.
I will be looking for a non-fluid type.
I'll make my final decision re; the tray when I finish the bottom end.
For now I'll finish the intake mod (for future F.I., vac plenum) and top end.
Got the rocker shims and got all the rockers lined up on stems. Next is pushrod clearance.
Y'all have a fun 4th
Ted

Ted, FWIW when my balancer spun apart a couple of years ago, Barry R., Brent L., and Keith C. all were in unison that ROMAC was an excellent choice at a reasonable price. I ended up buying it from Keith, who had it in stock. Any time you can get all three of those guys to agree on something then you know it's the way to go....