427 SO block or 428 CJ?

[67FEfastback]

I know some of you guys have road racing experience.

Okay, after my second engine oiling issue, I've got to consider some engine block choices.

A quick history, about two years ago, I lost the rear main bearing, from oil starvation. Re polished the crank, new bearings, new oil pan.

Everything was good, even did a track day last year. I liked it, but was basically going fast on the straights, and crappy on the corners.

I was looking forward to track day this year. Studied the track lines, and planned on working on cornering.

I also arrived with a revised suspension. Wider front tires, and changed rear suspension.

The cornering capability was remarkably better. I spent my time on the track, taking it easy on the straights, and working on trailbraking, track line, and exits.

As I got better, I started braking later and harder, until I spun out. After the spin, I got back to the pits leaking coolant. I found the fan/alt/water-pump belt missing.

Cut apart the filter last night, and can see the tell-tale copper flakes. It looks like another oiling issue.

So the generic 428 block, has oiling issues.
My engine builder, says if I'm going to road race, I need to rethink the engine, and get away from this block.
He has a standard bore 428 CJ block, but maybe I am better off looking for a side-oiler block, because of the better oiling properties.

Can the 428 cj be set up properly, to have adequate oiling, or should I be looking at an aftermarket 427 SO block?

[blykins]

Main bearing priority oiling does nothing if the engine can't get oil. I almost insist that the road race engines that I do get dry sump systems, or at least wet sumps with big fat Accsumps.

I would personally skip the side oiler block....no use in paying several grand for a 40 year old block when you can get a new aftermarket block for not much more. The 428 block should live if the oil can get to everywhere it needs to go.

[undy]

First, Unless your engine builder has good reason to think your block has major main bearing saddle/cap alignment issues I'd stay with the block and get away from your engine builder, just my opinion. As Brent said, the block is not your enemy.

You didn't mention which oil pan your running or if the rocker oiling is restricted. Both could cause oiling issues too. As Brent said, the only guaranteed way is dry sump or a 3 quart accusump. The accusump by far would be the least expensive option.

[67FEfastback]

Should have clarified, yes I am talking about a new side-oiler block.

and no I am not running oil restrictors

The 428 block I have is simply old. When we built it my intended use was highway cruising, not drag racing or road racing.

The cast crank, is just okay, but had some issues. The block has one sleeve, is 040, and a flaw in the casting by one of the main caps. The block was welded, and a BBC stud in place of the bolts, on that main.

Good for the intended use.

Since then, I've taken the car to the track twice to road race, and once to the drag strip.

And I bought an accusump, but never installed it (no room.)

Honestly I have fun at the track, and am probably guilty of pushing the engine beyond it's intended use. Especially having the change in suspension, allowed me to have a little too much fun.

This time around, I'm not convinced that it was purely a flaw in the engine itself. Probably a combination of shredding the fan belt, running hot, and travelling backwards in the car after the spin. Even though, I got into the clutch and brake right away.

Without the Genesis block being available, the leaves the Dove block or Shelby block.

Without considering budget, I'd prefer an aluminum block for weight savings, but am hesitant on day to day driving with aluminum.

The block that my engine builder has, is priced reasonably, but not a side oiler. My plans were to do a lot with the oil pan this spring, until I broke my ankle. That lost me about 2 months of time.

Yeah I could probably rescue all of the parts, and possibly the block. If there is bearing damage again, then the crank has reached it's tolerances, and is junk.

So I think the advise of my builder is reasonable, if I want to go racing, I should start with a better block and go forged/forged, do a real good oiling system, and go from there.

I agree with that. It's simply a question of engine blocks, which is a better option?

Lighter, wider bore (new aluminum) side-oiler.
Heavier new iron side oiler
Standard bore CJ block (not new)

Kind of crappy, it's all happened in the middle of summer.
The car was just featured on Street Legal TV and Stang TV. Super bad timing with lots of cruises and another couple track events coming up.
Pacific Thunder: A 1967 Shelby GT500 Pro Touring Tribute Car - StreetLegalTV
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D@mn, now I can't even drive it for the rest of the summer

Anyway, I'll be watching everyone else cruising, jealously.

[blykins]

Well, the priority is to still get the oiling system right. Won't matter if it's a brand new block if it can't get any oil. With a modern style suspension, a car is very well capable of pulling the oil away from the pickup.

As far as blocks, I wouldn't spend a bunch of money on a "new" old block. However, that just depends on your budget. Pond is the best deal going and the good thing is that if you ever decide to push the hp, you won't have to worry about splitting the cam tunnel. The aluminum block is another $1000 on top of the cast iron price, so again, it's up to your budget.

There are no issues with driving day to day with an aluminum block. OEM manufacturers do it daily a million times over. You just run a good oil, get the thing warm before you beat on it (you should do that anyway), and drive like normal.

How much can you spend? I personally would skip the old blocks altogether if you plan on racing.

[ERA Chas]

Accusump or not you always want to oil the mains first-forget the '28 block. Dry sump is best for serious, frequent track use. And you do want restrictors.
You've got a nice car but Street Legal TV does it no justice with that clown-show presentation. Text and images fly across the screen-get some print mag coverage-they're starving for features.

[67FEfastback]

Thanks, for the suggestions.

My thought process (first) was to use an aluminum side oiler.

One of my concerns is that, I've already "gone through" two vintage blocks, the first being unusable, after the sonic test, and the current one.
Should I try a third?

Then the obvious one, they built the side oiler for a reason, why not use that, along with the modern reproductions. I like driving the car on the track, why not use what worked best?

Then the others, weight savings, larger bore etc.

Oiling, will be something well planned with the next rendition. I had a custom pan, in mind. Dry sump, perhaps.

Budget, yeah a budget killer.

[RICK LAKE]

67FEfastback, The weight different is the issue of aluminum over iron just like the heads and intake manifold. All aluminum motor is 496 pounds if a Shelby. That is with a cast 428 crank shaft. Full iron block is 640 but question that number too.
You are hooked on the racing bug. The motor has to be built for this kind of event. The problem with FE blocks poor oil returns, running street oil pressure of 60 psi on the track and low oil pressure when running too when hot. On the track need a min of 75-80 psi PERIOD. You want to run 60 psi, go ahead. After a couple of "G" turns and the oil being slow to return to the pan, you will have low pressure to the back of the motor and running #4 and #5 mains low as well as cylinders 3,4,7,and 8 rod bearings. The reading on the oil gauage IS NOT what the back of the motor is seeing. There is a 15-30 psi drop from front to back of motor. The SO motor is better with direct oiling going to the mains first instead of the center of the block. Limiters in the heads of no less than #.080 if running shaft rockers or you could have a blueing problem with adjusters and push rod ends also. May sure that you smooth out the openings in the intake manifold to help oil return to oil pan.
Accusump, been running one for 10 years. Having a 3 quart safety net when racing and has saved my motor 2 times from rocker shaft breakage. There is always a place to put the tank. Hook up a quick connect when racing and remove it when street driving. They are electrical to control, even mount it in the trunk.
Aluminum has many pluses over iron. Weight alone, Most cars and trucks are running aluminum blocks that last 150,000 miles with basic maintainance. These new blocks are fine. Dry sump system is the way to go if you are going to stay on the track. If you are staying wetsump we need to improve the oiling system, control of flow, returns to pan, and maybe an added supply lines to the back of the block. Rick L.

[joyridin']

I am just going to give my 2 cents on this. I would think you need to decide what you are going to use your car for first. If you want to race it, and basically do not have unlimited resources to continue fixing or buying FE parts, then why not just look at a 427 Windsor engine? Serious horsepower available, easy to find parts, and you can race it all day.

Just seems like you are running in circles on this one. The SO was great for the originality look, but it seems like you have passed that stage and are moving on to something different.

[67FEfastback]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

67FEfastback, The weight different is the issue of aluminum over iron just like the heads and intake manifold. All aluminum motor is 496 pounds if a Shelby. That is with a cast 428 crank shaft. Full iron block is 640 but question that number too.
You are hooked on the racing bug. The motor has to be built for this kind of event. The problem with FE blocks poor oil returns, running street oil pressure of 60 psi on the track and low oil pressure when running too when hot. On the track need a min of 75-80 psi PERIOD. You want to run 60 psi, go ahead. After a couple of "G" turns and the oil being slow to return to the pan, you will have low pressure to the back of the motor and running #4 and #5 mains low as well as cylinders 3,4,7,and 8 rod bearings. The reading on the oil gauage IS NOT what the back of the motor is seeing. There is a 15-30 psi drop from front to back of motor. The SO motor is better with direct oiling going to the mains first instead of the center of the block. Limiters in the heads of no less than #.080 if running shaft rockers or you could have a blueing problem with adjusters and push rod ends also. May sure that you smooth out the openings in the intake manifold to help oil return to oil pan.
Accusump, been running one for 10 years. Having a 3 quart safety net when racing and has saved my motor 2 times from rocker shaft breakage. There is always a place to put the tank. Hook up a quick connect when racing and remove it when street driving. They are electrical to control, even mount it in the trunk.
Aluminum has many pluses over iron. Weight alone, Most cars and trucks are running aluminum blocks that last 150,000 miles with basic maintainance. These new blocks are fine. Dry sump system is the way to go if you are going to stay on the track. If you are staying wetsump we need to improve the oiling system, control of flow, returns to pan, and maybe an added supply lines to the back of the block. Rick L.

Thanks Rick, yours, was a very helpful post, for me.

[RICK LAKE]

67FE fastback Speedy, I looked at the you tube of the building of the Mustang. I know it's not orginial but If this is the car you are racing, Sorry, you nuts. Way too much time and money spent to build this beauty. Find a cobra kit like a Backdraft, Factory Five, Superpreformance, and race that. You wreck this car, GT and you will need years to repair if you do. If money is no object, go racing.
Side note If you are serious about tracking this car, there is a kit for helping the suspension and lowering the upper control arms for better handling. Last thing is Joyride has a good idea about running a stroked windsor motor in the 393 to 408 size or buy used Nascar parts and build from there and save the FE motors for car shows. I did everything myself to build my first FE motor with shebly heads and block and the cost was 13,000K. Motor number2 is in the basement and will be in the 20K range when done. Bigger motor, TWM 58MM carbs, and special parts with a dry sump setup. IF I was to rethink this, I could have built a stroker windsor for about 10-15 grand and save my Shelbys Good luck, keep 4 tires off the run offs, 2 is ok. Rick L.

[67FEfastback]

Yeah, I took it racing. Yeah I don't want to put it into a wall. I was actually taking it kind of easy on the track, this year. Going fairly slow on the straights, and working on my cornering.

The suspension is already very tricked out, and running about 2.5" lower on the front, and 2" on the rear. Engine is also lowered an inch and moved to the rear, one inch.

The other reason, I was going slow on the straights, was that I was cited for a noise violation, last year. If I got cited again, I'd get 2 warnings then kicked off the track.

I don't pretend I am a race car driver, but the car was built with driving in mind.

Sorry for the crappy video, but the camera was acting up this year, as was the camera mount.
MIssion Raceways Roush Track Day 2012 in a 1967 Pro Touring Shelby Tribute Car - YouTube

The idea, is to celebrate, what great cars they were, by driving it, and how much greater they can be with a little modern technology, thrown in.

Yeah, I could do a windsor version, which we considered, or a cleveland, or clevor, but to me, it's not the same thing.

Once again, thanks for the responses. Maybe next week I'll drop the pan and have a peek at the thrust and mains.

[RICK LAKE]

67FEfastback AH yes the noise police, another pain in the butt. Have you tryed different mufflers? I went through this up in New Hampshire years back with the cobra. 2" or 2.25" bullet mufflers where the limit for noise. Hemi mufflers work great and have good flow, Down side is weight and space they take up. You can deaden some of the sound by wrapping the headers and pipes. I have seen some crazy things done to quiet down cars. Extensions on the tail pipes point at a 45 degree down angle with 6" elbows. Sound pulses bounce off each other. Not sure if this really works.
You are not nuts, sorry for that statement. When you build a car from scratch and you have some serious money in this one, tracking it would be for parade laps only. I have been beating on my car for 15 years and this is the last year. I have had fun, run fast enough, spun out 3 times and caught fire once. I think that is everything you can do with the car except hit something. Forgot 1 change of shorts. Any way, Enjoy. Canton pan will help, the best thing is getting a light on the dash you can see with a 25-30 psi switch if you are going to race. When my oil gets hot and thin on long sweepers this light flickers, some guy use a alarm kit to make sure you know there is low oil pressure. This stops from taking eyes off track and off the throttle. Last side note, if the car is in the weeds you might want to look at a skid plate to protect from front cross member to trans area. It should be aluminum plate of 3/16 and bolted. It will increase the heat under the hood and tunnel but a 4" bildge fan from the boating world and heat tubing with a fresh air scource will help and lower the tunnel temps by 20-30 degrees. Hitting the corner of the oil pan on the track is a bad thing. They now fine you at some track for some cleanup or through you off and band you if you don't pay. Saw 7 quarts of oil on track that went about 1/3 of a mile and took 2 hours to clean, Bill was $500.00 and the guy wouldn't pay. Kicked off for life. Car and driver. Accidents happen, some tracks don't care or want to hear it. Cut the oil filter open and check for metal. Also get some man made magnets and stick them to the oil filter. Wire tie them to stay on the filter. They will pickup and hold metal partials from going back in to the motor. A company sell they magnet kits for like $50.00. This ways work good too. If you see no metal in filter, magnetic oil pan bolt, and oil pressure has not dropped when motor is hot, wouldn't worry about bearings. If pan is easy to remove than do it. Listen to the little guy on your shoulder for a problem with the car. If he says something COULD be wrong,98% of the time he is right. Others here can vouch for this. Good Luck cruising the tracks. Rick L.

[DanEC]

Looks like fun. I like the captioning. Also the dog tags hanging from the rear mirror. They work kind of like a cornering force G-meter.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

I like the cup holder best.....

Nice car, enjoy it and have fun.........always great to see the "old" cars on the track...........

PS: I have an oil pressure warning light on my race car and street car, have it set on 20 psi,anything under that,a red light comes on, you WILL see it...especially on a short tight track, you can't watch the gauges when in tight turns,but you'll see the light if it comes on....cheap to buy,easy to install,will let you know when your fixing to have a problem...
here's the one I use:

20 Lb. Oil Pressure Warning Light Kits - Speedway Motors, America's Oldest Speed Shop

David