427 Oil Level Help

[AZMike427]

Time for a oil change so I drained the oil out of my superformance with a 427FE yesterday. I filled and replaced the filter and began to fill the motor with new oil.

When I bought the car I asked about oil capacity and the seller's broker told me it had a 7.5 qt system which really didn't seem right. Pics of the pan I have are attached- it measures 18" Long x 6" high x 12" wide. I'm assuming this is a 9 quart pan (I've emailed Aviaid to confirm).

Per Aviaid's instructions I found in other threads I added 8 quarts (should be low reading) and there is no reading after sitting overnight. I certainly don't want to overfill so I'm guessing from here on I need to just add, pressurize, and let drain down until I get the right reading? Just checking to see if there is an easier way based on where I'm at right now with the 8 qts. Thanks for the help!

[1795]

The amount of oil that it takes to fill a given engine will vary some based upon where the remote oil filter is installed and the length and size of cooler lines. There could easily be a quad or more in the lines. You have to just continue to add until you hit the fill mark, just add slowly. Then record the amount you used for future reference.

If you are concerned about running the engine with low oil as you are determining how much oil to use, you can disconnect the coil, pull the spark plugs to relieve compression and just turn the engine over with the starter until you see oil pressure build up. That way you are circulating oil through the lines and filter with low impact on the engine internals. Just be cautious with the starter and do not run it for long and have someone check the temp to make sure that you are not over heating it.

[Large Arbor]

I think I have the same Aviad pan and it takes about 9 and 1/2 quarts to fill it.

Phil

[AZMike427]

Originally Posted by 1795

The amount of oil that it takes to fill a given engine will vary some based upon where the remote oil filter is installed and the length and size of cooler lines. There could easily be a quad or more in the lines. You have to just continue to add until you hit the fill mark, just add slowly. Then record the amount you used for future reference.

If you are concerned about running the engine with low oil as you are determining how much oil to use, you can disconnect the coil, pull the spark plugs to relieve compression and just turn the engine over with the starter until you see oil pressure build up. That way you are circulating oil through the lines and filter with low impact on the engine internals. Just be cautious with the starter and do not run it for long and have someone check the temp to make sure that you are not over heating it.

Perfect- that's exactly what I figured I should do. I'm not running it long but just enough to get see pressure. Would it be out of line for this thing to hold 11-12 qts? I just found some literature in the seller folder packet that says 11-12....
Thanks for the help!

[1795]

The Cobra Road Race pan for my 289 is 9.5 quarts, I could imagine that one for an FE could be larger, but probably not that large. It might be the the 11-12 quarts number includes the filter, oil cooler and cooler lines.

[AZMike427]

Originally Posted by Large Arbor

I think I have the same Aviad pan and it takes about 9 and 1/2 quarts to fill it.

Phil

Thank you Phil!

[keezling]

I'd personally disregard what some guy said and get an answer from Aviaid. Then with the proper amount of oil installed either trim the dipstick tube or get a longer dipstick. You may have to make a new full mark. If it has an oil cooler that will affect how much oil is required also.

[eschaider]

There are 231 cubic inches in a gallon of anything. If you are confident of your measurements it is simply length x width x depth for the total cubic inches displaced by the pan dimensions. Divide by 231 to get gallons and multiply by 4 to get quarts. Add an additional quart for a remote filter.

Be careful when you measure the pan depth dimension. This dimension will determine the oil level in the pan when the engine is off. The quick math (based on your measurements) without regard for the presence or absence of a windage tray looks like this 18 x 12 x 6 = 1296 cubic inches. 1296 / 231= 5.61 gallons. Four quarts per gallon works out to 22 quarts.

22 quarts of oil is huge! My suspicion is that you measured to the top of the pan's gasket surface. If your oil pan has a windage tray (which is to your advantage) you need to measure to the underside of the windage tray. If you take the pan off to get the windage tray measurement then you might as well just measure how many quarts you have to pour in to bring the oil level to the windage tray.

For those doing a new build and in a first start scenario it will take approximately 1 more quart to wet the inside of the engine. So be sure to take that into consideration.

The obvious danger to an inadequate oil volume (in the pan) is the potential to draw air instead of oil into the system. The presence of air in the oil system, especially under load, will do permanent damage to engine bearings and bearing surfaces.

Oil not only provides lubrication but also cooling for the engine. Reduced oil capacity reduces the cooling which is almost as bad as drawing air up an exposed oil pickup.

Your pan looks like an Aviad. If it is, the short way home is to call Aviad and ask what capacity it is. If it is not an Aviad then you are still on the Easter egg hunt for oil pan capacity.

Regardless of how you finally make your oil pan capacity determination do a preliminary check with the engine off and then do a second check with the engine running, up to temperature and idling in neutral. If the level has fallen add sufficient oil to bring it back to the the level on your dipstick that corresponds to your windage tray level.

Record the total system capacity wherever you keep track of you engine stats.


Ed

[AZMike427]

Originally Posted by eschaider

There are 231 cubic inches in a gallon of anything. If you are confident of your measurements it is simply length x width x depth for the total cubic inches displaced by the pan dimensions. Divide by 231 to get gallons and multiply by 4 to get quarts. Add an additional quart for a remote filter.

Be careful when you measure the pan depth dimension. This dimension will determine the oil level in the pan when the engine is off. The quick math (based on your measurements) without regard for the presence or absence of a windage tray looks like this 18 x 12 x 6 = 1296 cubic inches. 1296 / 231= 5.61 gallons. Four quarts per gallon works out to 22 quarts.

22 quarts of oil is huge! My suspicion is that you measured to the top of the pan's gasket surface. If your oil pan has a windage tray (which is to your advantage) you need to measure to the underside of the windage tray. If you take the pan off to get the windage tray measurement then you might as well just measure how many quarts you have to pour in to bring the oil level to the windage tray.

For those doing a new build and in a first start scenario it will take approximately 1 more quart to wet the inside of the engine. So be sure to take that into consideration.

The obvious danger to an inadequate oil volume (in the pan) is the potential to draw air instead of oil into the system. The presence of air in the oil system, especially under load, will do permanent damage to engine bearings and bearing surfaces.

Oil not only provides lubrication but also cooling for the engine. Reduced oil capacity reduces the cooling which is almost as bad as drawing air up an exposed oil pickup.

Your pan looks like an Aviad. If it is, the short way home is to call Aviad and ask what capacity it is. If it is not an Aviad then you are still on the Easter egg hunt for oil pan capacity.

Regardless of how you finally make your oil pan capacity determination do a preliminary check with the engine off and then do a second check with the engine running, up to temperature and idling in neutral. If the level has fallen add sufficient oil to bring it back to the the level on your dipstick that corresponds to your windage tray level.

Record the total system capacity wherever you keep track of you engine stats.


Ed

Thanks Ed- so I emailed Aviad and since it's the weekend haven't heard back from them. I also shot a text to Armando of Armando's oil pans who I guess makes the same type pan now and used to work for Avaid. He confirmed it's a 9qt pan but I'll wait to hear from Avaid.

I did the pan measurements to match those on the Aviad website and yes- I measured the front from the gasket. Understood on your volume measurements though- I'm hoping to get confirmation without pulling the pan.

One of the last few nice weekends in AZ and I didn't think I'd have a 2 day oil change in the plans!

[Shootnride]

Originally Posted by Large Arbor

I think I have the same Aviad pan and it takes about 9 and 1/2 quarts to fill it.

Phil

Same here. I have the Aviad pan on my FE powered SPF and it takes about 9 1/2 quarts for an oil change including filling the new filter.

Ted

[AZMike427]

Originally Posted by Shootnride

Same here. I have the Aviad pan on my FE powered SPF and it takes about 9 1/2 quarts for an oil change including filling the new filter.

Ted

Thanks Ted. Interestingly enough I have a folder full of documentation on the car and the old owner got charged everywhere from 8 quarts to 12 quarts depending on the oil change. Funny stuff.

[AZMike427]

I have another question. The pan has a small port for a dipstick on the passenger side front side of the pan. Mine is installed in the old filter mount location on the drivers side (car has a remote oil filter setup). I pulled the dipstick and ran it outside of the tube to see where it would end up in the pan (from under the car) and it looks like it's about right. Doesn't that pan have a windage tray that would conflict with the dipstick in that location? Seems to slide in with no problem and seats good.





I'm about ready to drain all the oil, pull the pan and start over so I know this thing is right. Right now I have 10 qts in the car (including filter) and I'm not getting a reading.

[1795]

I do not recall seeing a dipstick mounted like that. I would ask the prior owner about it, but if he was saying that oil fills could be anywhere from 8-12 quarts, I am not sure that he knows much. How much oil do you think that you removed?

If it is not too difficult, I would consider removing the pan to take a look and see what you have there. While you are down there, you might want to take a look at the oil cooler lines to make sure they are routed correctly. the oil should go from the block to the filter, then to the oil cooler and back to the block.

How many miles on the car and how many have you put on it since purchasing it? There are a lot of knowledgable cobra people in AZ that should be able to visit and take a look at things for you.

[AZMike427]

Originally Posted by 1795

I do not recall seeing a dipstick mounted like that. I would ask the prior owner about it, but if he was saying that oil fills could be anywhere from 8-12 quarts, I am not sure that he knows much. How much oil do you think that you removed?

If it is not too difficult, I would consider removing the pan to take a look and see what you have there. While you are down there, you might want to take a look at the oil cooler lines to make sure they are routed correctly. the oil should go from the block to the filter, then to the oil cooler and back to the block.

How many miles on the car and how many have you put on it since purchasing it? There are a lot of knowledgable cobra people in AZ that should be able to visit and take a look at things for you.

Yup I'll throw a link to this thread in the AZ Cobras section for sure. Unfortunately when I drained the oil I put it into a 5 gal drain oil can that also had oil in it from my GT500 change I did last weekend. Lines all seem to be routed right. Looks like they avoided putting the dipstick in the passenger side location because of access (alternator etc is above it).

[Large Arbor]

My dipstick goes on the passenger side front of the pan. Its right at 21" long if that helps. Looks to me like your dipstick is way too short.

Phil

[dcdoug]

To follow-up on what these other guys have said, are you sure that dipstick was calibrated? Doesn't sound like it. Most of the original style pans from Aviad/Armando/Kirkham are 9qt pans. When I changed from a smaller Canton pan to the Kirkham pan, I did the following:

Drain pan and fill pan with 8 qts and let sit overnight without starting the engine. Mark dipstick as "low". Add another quart (still don't start engine) and mark as "full". Assuming you replaced the filter too, then add 1 add'l quarter for the rest of the system.

Then start it and add oil if necessary to bring it back up to the "full" mark. Obviously you need to make sure your dipstick is making it all the way down into the pan.

[AZMike427]

Originally Posted by Large Arbor

My dipstick goes on the passenger side front of the pan. Its right at 21" long if that helps. Looks to me like your dipstick is way too short.

Phil

Thanks Phil- is that the C70E-6750-A dipstick?

Originally Posted by dcdoug

To follow-up on what these other guys have said, are you sure that dipstick was calibrated? Doesn't sound like it. Most of the original style pans from Aviad/Armando/Kirkham are 9qt pans. When I changed from a smaller Canton pan to the Kirkham pan, I did the following:

Drain pan and fill pan with 8 qts and let sit overnight without starting the engine. Mark dipstick as "low". Add another quart (still don't start engine) and mark as "full". Assuming you replaced the filter too, then add 1 add'l quarter for the rest of the system.

Then start it and add oil if necessary to bring it back up to the "full" mark. Obviously you need to make sure your dipstick is making it all the way down into the pan.

I think the dipstick was never calibrated right. I prefer the location on the pan that Aviad intended and not the stock location as it currently sits. I'm going to start all over....

[CSX3183]

When I had my car, with pan, lines, remote filter, and cooler, 11-12 quarts

[Large Arbor]

I am not sure which dipstick it is on min, I just know its length.

Phil