2, 10, & 11o'clock timing, relative or absolute?

[2003SV]

I found posts that over the years Ford timed small blocks from 3 positions, 2 o'clock, 10 o'clock and 11 o'clock. Does anyone know if those were relative (approximate) positions or were absolute?

I bought a 347 crate motor 2 years ago, but did not get around to installing and firing up, until just recently. I can't time the motor. I have it running, but that's with me setting the timing by 'ear'.

The motor had a timing pointer on the driver's side so I'm assuming that's the 2 o'clock Ford position. I bought a long block, so I had to procure all the other junk; water pump, thermostat housing/thermostat, distributor, coil, wires, plugs, intake manifold, carb, air cleaner, pulley set, alternator, balancer, flywheel, clutch, TO bearing, pressure plate, etc.

The company I bought the long block from also supplied the driver's side inlet water pump, balancer, break in oil, and filter. As soon as I went to put the water pump on, I could see the driver's side pointer was completely obscured by the water pump. So I called the company up and one of people I spoke too recommended a passenger side pointer from a Mustang specialty company. It's a Ford part and so I bought it.

I went to time the motor the motor just didn't want to run. The distributer vacuum advance was twisted away from pointing straight ahead (CC). I set that I though total timing was and the motor was NOT happy at all. I thought, well maybe a very lump, rough idle cam... I took the car for a brief ride around the block and knew something was terribly wrong.

So I called the company and they kept telling me I had to read the passenger side timing marks off the balancer and I kept telling them there are no marks I can see, nothing, nada, zip, zilch. They didn't have any ideas except to tell me that I should forget about trying to time passenger side and instead should get under the car as the motor is spun at 3500 RPM and set timing from underneath the car using the driver's side pointer... After a 1/2 hour of discussion we agreed something was amiss and neither they nor me knew how to solve the mystery.

So I did crawl under the car and took some measurements off the balancer. I found 3 places marked "0". I used aluminum duct tape affixed to regular masking tape and measured as follows (I'll call them A, B, and C). A to B was 1.789", B to C was 3.836". The advertised diameter of my balancer is 6.375" so that's 20.02" circumference or 0.055" per degree. That means the angle between A & B is about 32.1 degrees. The angle between B & C is about 69 degrees.

I didn't expect this but then thought maybe when folks say timing is 2 o'clock, 10 o'clock, and 11 o'clock, those were approximate positions and not absolute because for example the angular difference between 11 o'clock and 2 o'clock would be 90 degrees (and not 69 degrees).

Any insight is much appreciated.

[Jeff Hamilton]

Pull #1 spark plug ( front pass side)and roll the motor over to top dead center. Look at your balancer and see if you line up with 0 degrees. If you don't buy timing tape and stick it to the balancer where it lines up exactly with 0 degrees.

[2003SV]

It's pretty darn smoking hot and humid here, but I'll try to do that this evening. Otherwise we're expecting rain in the weekend and that'll cool things down. I will say what I see if beyond mystifying. I manually turned the motor over and lined up number 1 DISTRIBUTOR cap to the housing. In theory I should be at TDC as the car starts and seems to run well (a bit hot but it cranks fine, fires quickly, and revs quickly). When I looked for the timing marks on the balancer (there are 3 places with a 0 mark), nothing lined up, even with the 'factory' installed pointed from the company that sent me the motor. Heck, it wasn't even close. I had marked the face of the balancer corresponding to the zero marks and the closest reference mark was about at the 12 o'clock position....

I've lost lots of sleep trying to figure that out... I'll locate TDC via spark plug hole and re-assess. I can't possibly believe I've set timing by 'ear', it starts and runs well, but is 40 - 50 degrees off. I motor can't possibly run being off timed 40 or 50 degrees, so this is a huge mystery to me.....

[Jeff Hamilton]

You have the wrong timing tab. No worries buy some timing tape. When your rotor is pointing at number one you are at least 10 degrees before top dead center. Pull the #1 sparkplug and make sure you are exactly top dead center. Install the timing tape with the 0 at Top dead center on your timing tab.

[jts359]

I want see where this post goes as I am having the same problem with my 347 , I set the engine on TDC and put a mark on the harmonic balancer , I then start the engine and and with a timing light I can not find that mark , Its about 90 degrees away from where I would expect to find it , I set the engine up with a vacuum gauge and it runs great , Someday I'll find that mark , Ed

[Jeff Hamilton]

You have to be top dead center on compression stroke.

[jts359]

It is tdc on the compression stroke, Ed

[2003SV]

We had a brief rain storm yesterday evening and it cooled off enough to work in the garage. When I started last night I was definitely near TDC on compression, there's no doubt about that. I tried to use a cheapie Wifi endoscope I bought awhile ago to look down my house's heat/AC vents. So I fired up the Wifi endoscope and I got to tell you I could hardly make out anything! Either the camera light was too bright and everything glared or it was too dark and I could only see dark blobs... It's not a high quality endoscope so I guess for $20 you get what you pay for... It was very, very hard to see stuff inside the cylinder but I THOUGHT based on what I could see by moving the crank CC or CCW I was at TDC and that corresponds to the zero (0) on the harmonic balancer at the driver's side timing pointer. I think that reinforces that I'm at TDC. Geez it's nearly impossible to see the (*&^ pointer that's obscured almost 100% by the driver's side inlet water pump...

With what surely seems to be TDC, my distributor is pointing ONE SPARK PLUG POSITION CCW AWAY from the wire for #1. That's 40 distributor degrees... Now mind you, the motor starts well and seems to run well, set by 'ear'. It idles well. So what the heck is going on? I'm betting if I remove the distributor and re-clock moving it 40 degrees clockwise to line up with #1 plug wire the motor will NOT start well nor will run well.

I've ordered up several TDC tools from Amazon, but they won't be here for several days. I'll use one or both to confirm I'm at absolute TDC, but right now my vendor supplied harmonic balancer and the vendor supplied timing pointer are aligned, zero on the balancer to the cut edge of the pointer. The balancer, timing pointer, and my visual inspection all indicate I'm at TDC. I'm completely baffled by this given the distributor's cap position.... Oh BTW, I have a 347 as well...

In an interesting twist of events, I'm seeing zero (0) on my passenger side Ford pointer (the one that I bough when I saw the driver side debacle) that is advertised as a 10 o'clock timing pointer....

[2003SV]

And yet another correction, sorry, but I'm really frazzled... I took a closer look at where the distributor rotor (MSD) is pointing and it's NOT QUITE to plug wire #3. It's mostly there but not quite... so maybe the distributor cap isn't a full 45 degrees away CCW from #1 wire but it's most of the way to #3 wire. If I knew how to post pics I'd do that ....

So to recap. My balancer's zero marks, driver's side and passenger side, are aligning with their respective timing pointers, but my distributor rotor is pointing very close to plug wire #3. If I were to install the distributor cap and bolt up the battery (I use a disconnect) it'd fire up just fine and run fine...

[1795]

Pull your valve cover on the passenger side and watch the movement of the rocker arms to make sure that you are at TDC on #1. The intake valve (the rocker arm not directly inline with the header tube) should open and when it fully closes and the exhaust valve rocker arm is fully closed (both of them should wiggle loose on the valve stems unless you have hydraulic rockers), then look to see which spark plug wire the rotor is pointing at. That should be #1 at 0 degrees. If you are well past #1 and almost to #3 that may suggest that you are quite a bit retarded (as opposed to advanced) on #1 and quite possibly very advanced on #3 (i.e., out of firing order sequence by one wire), or that you are firing very early on number 1 (but I do not know how the engine would run if you were firing so early that the rotor was almost to #3 when you were at TDC on #1). I hate to make suggestions that then get you totally screwed up, but it would seem to me that you should loosen the distributor and turn it so that the rotor points to #1 and then mark your zero.

If it is not, then your spark plug wires may have been improperly installed on the cap, possibly by one space. If your wires are not numbered, place tape on them and number them before attempting to disconnect any. Before you attempt to replace the spark plug wires in the correct sequence make sure that you take a picture of the current order on the distributor cap just incase you have to replace them in the original order and then disconnect and re-attach one wire at a time. Make sure that you have the correct firing order for your engine and that you arrange the wires in the correct sequence, the firing order is counter clockwise.

Jim

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by 2003SV

And yet another correction, sorry, but I'm really frazzled... I took a closer look at where the distributor rotor (MSD) is pointing and it's NOT QUITE to plug wire #3. It's mostly there but not quite... so maybe the distributor cap isn't a full 45 degrees away CCW from #1 wire but it's most of the way to #3 wire. If I knew how to post pics I'd do that ....

So to recap. My balancer's zero marks, driver's side and passenger side, are aligning with their respective timing pointers, but my distributor rotor is pointing very close to plug wire #3. If I were to install the distributor cap and bolt up the battery (I use a disconnect) it'd fire up just fine and run fine...

With your No.1 at TDC compression, the rotor should past no.1 and towards No.3. No.1 has already fired at say 30 BTDC, hence why your rotor now points closer to 3.

Get yourself a TRUE TDC positive stop in place of the spark plug. Find before TDC in one direction, turn backwards to find a bit ATDC. Mark both stops on the balancer. Hopefully you have a 1-2 inch gap to split to find your now true TDC. You can put these marks anywhere you like so your selected timing tab will line up.

[2003SV]

I have a true TDC positive stop tool on order from Amazon (it's a Comp Cams tool). Hopefully I can work on the car possibly Saturday or preferably on Sunday when it cools down a bit. It's been dreadful (but typical) heat and humidity here.

I've triple checked my wiring and there isn't a cross up... I have an MSD probillet distributor, wiring kit, and coil so it's all marked nicely. The positive stop TDC tool will establish where I'm at (or should be) with respect to my balancer. I would have expected my rotor to be slightly past (CCW) the #1 terminal at TDC. Assuming static initial timing is 14-16 degrees before TDC (and the terminal for #1) would have lined up, I'd expect at TDC for the distributor to have swung 7-8 degrees CCW toward #3, not the 35-40 distributor degrees. But as all have said, let's set a known baseline of TDC and that will be with a positive stop tool. Thanks much to all. I'll apologize again, in advance for any misrepresentations, errors, etc. I'm about as unconfident (and maybe INCOMPETENT) as never before. I haven't worked on a ton of motors but I've completely rebuilt several, including a pretty darn complicated inline 4 cylinder motor engine. I just haven't run across anything like this before...

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by 2003SV

I'm about as unconfident (and maybe INCOMPETENT) as never before. I haven't worked on a ton of motors but I've completely rebuilt several, including a pretty darn complicated inline 4 cylinder motor engine. I just haven't run across anything like this before...

This is really not hard -- you can do it. Here are the steps I use and you don't have to turn the engine backwards. This will get you within a degree, and usually right on the money, for finding TDC and it's the easiest way. The only way you can screw something up is to leave the piston stop tool in the plug hole when you start the car up. So, just to be safe, hide the ignition key somewhere else until you remove the tool.

1) Put a pointer, any pointer, aimed at an easily reached spot on your balancer.

2) Put a stick in your #1 spark plug hole and using your wrench on the crank bolt, rotate your engine until you are just past TDC (piston is heading back down the hole so the stick is headed back down).

3) Remove your stick and insert your piston stop and screw the little screw part down until it touches the top of your piston and goes no further. Don't muscle it, handshake tight is fine.

3) Put timing tape, or even just plain old masking tape, on your balancer with a mark aimed at your make shift pointer. If you're using timing tape, put the zero mark of the tape at the pointer.

4) Rotate the engine in the normal direction all the way around until it stops again because of the piston stop. Make another mark where the pointer is aimed at. If you are using timing tape, note the number (for instance, 24 degrees). The middle point between the two marks is TDC. If you are using timing tape, just divide the two number by two ( in this example it is 12 degrees). If you're using plain old masking tape, then just measure the middle point between the two marks -- that's TDC.

5) Remove your piston stop and rotate the engine a little bit farther to that half way point (in this example, 12 degrees).

6) You are now at TDC.

Note -- you can get reasonably close to true timing marks on an unmarked balancer just by using your wife's sewing tape to measure the circumference of the balancer and then do the math to find degrees. That's not going to be perfect, but it'll be darn close.

[spdbrake]

This video explains finding the compression stroke on the #1 cylinder (video mark 4:49) Necessary to drop a distributor in and also before you install the piston stop for your issue.

(Video mark 7:30) explains finding true TDC using the piston stop on an engine with no timing marks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px5P5q8ZVhI

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by spdbrake

This video explains finding the compression stroke on the #1 cylinder (video mark 4:49) Necessary to drop a distributor in and also before you install the piston stop for your issue.

(Video mark 7:30) explains finding true TDC using the piston stop on an engine with no timing marks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px5P5q8ZVhI

A very good video, except when marking a balancer and then determining the TRUE TDC mark on the balancer, the timing marker tab then needs to be moved to his marks, OR more correctly, his 2 pieces of tape should have averaged around his current fixed timing tab. Note how he places the two pieces of tape, then turns the engine to show the middle of the gap line up with the timing tab ZERO mark. Now is the engine at TDC? NO it is NOT at TDC.

[2003SV]

I've posted a few times lately, but I don't see them...

Does Quick reply get posted somewhere else?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by 2003SV

I've posted a few times lately, but I don't see them...

Does Quick reply get posted somewhere else?

Sometimes the Quick Reply doesn't work as well as it should.

[2003SV]

2 of my previous progress posts didn't persist, so there might be a hiccup with this forum s/w... Let me give all you all, as Paul Harvey would say, 'the rest of the story'.

Bottom line - The motor was mistimed. I mistimed it through a series of incredible mis-steps. I carefully measured (I'll post later) and established piston TDC last week and confirmed TDC corresponded with the timing pointer AND balancer. When that was done I timed the motor. It has 34 degrees total, 12 degrees initial and seems run much better as it revs. My idle (I think is around 600RPM...). My fault.

What's so bizarre to me, is the motor started and ran, so horribly mis-timed. We're not talking 4 or 8 degrees off, we're talking around 46 degrees MORE advance on top of 12 degrees initial, so nearly 60 degrees initial advance. This is by my calculations and measurement, but as we've seen can't always be relied upon. That's what I didn't understand, how could a motor start and run with so much advance. My erroneous conclusion was that my timing pointer and balancer were simply giving my the wrong information and therefore were incompatible with my engine. I had horrible thoughts that maybe the keyway on the crank broke and my balancer twisted and rotated on the crank, stopping at a random location.... Or I jumped a tooth of the timing gear, or the cam and crank were installed incorrectly ... etc. etc.

I'm here to tell you a motor massively mistimed motor WILL start and run.

By my calculations, at 12 degrees BTDC advance, I was advanced 23 degrees toward #3 plug wire. The distributor turns at 1/2 crank so that's 46 degrees further advanced... I started the car, just to prove I wasn't hallucinating with that timing. It started AND ran. Admittedly, it idled very high, around 950 but it ran and revved...

So how did I get here? I've wracked my brain trying to figure that out. Here's the series of errors... I assumed my pointer and balancer agreed when I initially installed the distributor. After the motor was installed I pulled the distributor to pre-lube the engine with an oil pump tool and electric drill. But I didn't set the motor to TDC compression when I pulled the dizzy. I just pulled it, noting the position of the vacuum advance snout and rotor position.

I pulled the dizzy, primed the motor, and re-installed the dizzy. Well clearly I did that wrong and was off. I know, as I've seen, you can do that, just pull a dizzy and put it back with the motor stopped in any position, but unless you do that a lot, it's probably best practice to turn that motor to TDC compression, remove the distributor cap, and carefully mark the distributor's and caps position. Then re-install basically as a fresh/new distributor install.

I didn't and was off. Maybe just over confidence or maybe I was just being lazy. So I re-installed the distributor incorrectly. Next I formulated a belief system that since the motor ran, it was impossible for the timing elements to be correct and therefore, the motor was timed OK, but that it was the TIMING POINTER AND BALANCER that were in error. My belief system was that it was impossible for a motor to start and run if timing were significantly off. That is not the case. I was looking for a force fit explanation. (kind of like the astronomers in Galileo's time who plotted the movement of planets as erratic back and forth movements).

The REAL failure, despite the company that sold the motor to me and my procurement of a timing pointer from another company was not baselining the motor. Ultimately that was my fault. Sure it would have been way different had the company that sold me the motor had put specs for the balancer on their webpage (Or if their technicians/support people knew) the balancer was marked for 2 o'clock and 10 o'clock. How 'nice' it would have been to know that. Look at other popular parts websites. Balancers have better information, not just weight/imbalance, and diameter, but the location of timing marks. Mine didn't and I suspect that's simply because it was probably an "imported" part.... As a side note, you tend to get what you pay for and clear specs on a part, is part of what you pay for... more lessons from the school of hard knocks.

the next no-information element was the timing pointer. The company that sold the pointer is a MUSTANG parts company. They specialize in only Mustang parts and so people buying their parts specify the year and sub-model or motor option when ordering parts. The parts description didn't provide any information on the part other than it was OEM Ford timing pointer passenger side. How things would have been different if it would have indicated Passenger side 10 o'clock pointer.

Yep, then I would have had specs that said 'balancer with timing marks at 2 and 10 o'clock and timing pointer for passenger side 10 o'clock'. So it would have been way better information to have. BUT ULTIMATELY IT WAS MY RESPONSIBILITY AND FAILURE TO ESTABLISH THE TIMING BASELINE.

In 20/20 hindsight, I should bought the tools initially that I wound up buying anyway to set TDC. Yes I well remember as a teen 50 years ago, putting a straw into #1 cylinder and watch it get pushed out as I set TDC. Yep, what an idiot I am. Had I measured and confirmed TDC with my balancer and timing pointer, I would have established a KNOWN baseline and confirmed that at TDC the timing pointer and balancer marks were all in agreement. Then after screwing up the distributor re-install, at least I would have had a KNOWN baseline to work from.

So at this point I believe the motor is now, so far as I can tell, correctly timed. I'm so gun shy know I'm not jumping up and down, uncorking the champagne. Heaven only knows else awaits me or whatever incorrect belief system will send me on another Don Quixote mis-adventure. I'll send a pic of the motor if I can figure out how to do that!

Again, thanks to all for your tips, links, patience, and understanding.

[2003SV]

I guess if you've seen one motor you've seen them all but here's my "347". It's 0.040" over so it's a bit more than 347 cid...

Comp Cam roller cam and hydraulic lifters (don't know the specs).
Aluminum heads, I think 'offshore' but made for the company that assembled the motor.
Edelbrock Performer RPM intake manifold
Edelbrock AVS2 650CFM carb with manual choke
MSD Pro-billet distributor (ready to run), wires, coil (note how I've twisted the dizzy CCW).
CVF Racing single V-belt pulley set
Ford Performance flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate
Lakewood scattershield

Pretty generic. 415hp/450tq