Difference in crate engines

[Detroit Bill]

I was looking at Keith's crate engine offerings. There are two that are similar.

The lessor expensive 550hp iron block
428 FE 428-463 Street Crate

And the more expensive Pond block at 600 hp.
482/496 FE Pond Aluminum Street Crate

As best I can tell beyond the block the changes are displacement, larger valves and likely a different cam profile to go with it which results in more hp and torque.

Am I missing something there? I think the weight savings is in the 100 pound range for the block.

What is a "production block"? 390, 428?

Thanks in advance for your help.

[DanEC]

Bill, I'm not sure I understand your question:

What is a "production block"? 390, 428

Are you asking the weight? If so this thread probably will tell you more than you want to know.

Weight of 428 bare block??

Except for weight I would suspect the main difference between those two stock formula KC engines is the displacement. From being in his shop a few times I've seen that he does build certain formula or "crate" engines because I saw a whole row of identical 482 FEs wrapped up to go to Kirkham as needed. But, he is a custom shop and KC will make any number of changes in a engine build to suit what you need.

[Dwight]

PHP Code:

What is a "production block"? 390, 428 


A production block is a block pulled from an old car or truck. Cleaned, checked and machined. Sometimes called a seasoned block. I would guess about $4,000 cheaper than an FE aluminum block.

Dwight

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by DanEC

Bill, I'm not sure I understand your question:

What is a "production block"? 390, 428

Are you asking the weight? If so this thread probably will tell you more than you want to know.

Weight of 428 bare block??

Except for weight I would suspect the main difference between those two stock formula KC engines is the displacement. From being in his shop a few times I've seen that he does build certain formula or "crate" engines because I saw a whole row of identical 482 FEs wrapped up to go to Kirkham as needed. But, he is a custom shop and KC will make any number of changes in a engine build to suit what you need.

Thanks that was a good thread on weight. So those two builds look identical and the displacement is the difference. I figured that, I was hoping for a discussion on the merits of plunking down 5k for the aluminum block?

Less weight is good.
Added potential displacement.
A stronger block.
The same metals, block, head, intake for the same expansion contraction or less potential leaks.
Although the weight is similar I wonder is the weight is effectively lower?
Cool factor.

I think Keith's crate engines are right on the money. Stout enough to be trouble free without added money where it is not necessary. Probably has great street manners but sounds good. Cam profile that has stood the test of time. I'll bet they have the carb specs dialed in pretty tight also. I am not sure making it "custom" has much merit if the HP and torque come in where you want.

[Dwight]

I have driven several of Keith's big block motor is buddies Cobras.

One a 428 stroked to 461 @ 601 hp and 620 Tq(I think 620 Tq). Keith's street motor always make more Tq than hp. And all the motors I have seen make more HP / TQ than he advertiser. But again it's hard to tell 20 - 30 hp different on the street. Well my butt can tell.

Another Pond aluminum 481, 630 hp ranges more Tq. (close to 640 I think)

A 427 s.o. bored & stroked to 487 c.i. 618 hp and 632 tq.
I have driven these three Cobras a lot on the street.

I cannot tell the different in the weight.

All have tons of low end torque and will spin the tires (good tires not T/A radials) in third if you want to.
All have very good street manners. Easy to drive in town.

For the money, I would buy a production block 482
I would ask Keith to bump the cam up a little for more hp.
Just my opinion

Dwight

[Dwight]

[quoteI think Keith's crate engines are right on the money. Stout enough to be trouble free without added money where it is not necessary. Probably has great street manners but sounds good. Cam profile that has stood the test of time. I'll bet they have the carb specs dialed in pretty tight also. I am not sure making it "custom" has much merit if the HP and torque come in where you want.][/quote]

Yes to first statement
yes to the second statement
yes to the third
yes to the fourth

carb dialed in for wide open throttle only. He does not know what air cleaner, headers, sidepipes, etc you will use. You will have to tune the carb after you install it into your car.

On the sound, Lainhart has two sets of sidepipes. One set has nothing inside to restrict air flow. With his 487 c.i. side oiler it sound like thunder each time a cylinder hits.

Once he installed them he has taken them off.

When we pull into a car show and people stop what ever they are doing to find the source of the exhaust noise.
I have seen them looking for the source of the noise when he was a half block away. Now we where idling slowly by a row of buildings which projected the sound of both pipes to one direction. Small kids and old woman, they all look.

But in an open field car show, they can he him comes. And at 7000 rpm, I'm in car heaven!

All three sound like a Man Size Cobra but Lainhart's pipes gets everyone attention. At red lights, people roll down their windows to listen to the music.

Nothing like a big block idling at 1000 rpm.

Oh by the way my small block sounds pretty good at the red light.

Dwight

[Dwight]

I have driven a couple of his 408W motor in the 530 hp range.

They are fast, very fast

Trouble free and easy to drive on the street

Dwight

[Detroit Bill]

Thanks for all the info Dwight.

[DanEC]

There are a number of after-market engine blocks (aluminum and iron) now available and even a few that have fallen out of production but are still around. They are all a bit different and certain ones are definately favored from builder's experiences. There is a lot of diffences in after market block weights also.

Since you have some track time in mind, an aluminum block might make sense to you. An FE engine is not particulary heavy for a big block. Compared to a 427/454 Chevy motor or Ford 460 it's downright lean. With at least an aluminum intake to replace a big cast iron one, the weight is really reasonable, especially for a deep-skirt design motor. I've read that some of the after-market cast iron blocks can be significantly heavier than the original FE iron blocks.

Discussing weight, you should know that an ERA is going to weigh a little more than most replicas starting from scratch. Those big, thick main rails and solid-as-a-brick body add about 100 lbs +/- over most comparable replicas. Compared to a Kirkham with all billet suspension it probably is a couple hundred pounds or more. It's a bit of a penalty for what is a very solid and stiff car.

Obviously if money is not an object building up an all aluminum block, head, intake, water pump motor is probably the pinnacle of performance. I think without exception the after market blocks are considered stronger than an original blocks. 427 SO blocks in good condition can be difficult to locate and then they are somewhat limited in re-boring capability, most builders not wanting to go more than .030 over from what I understand. Other FE blocks are still around in fair supply. The 428 KC used for my car had virtually no bore wear - he cleaned it up with a .015 over bore. I felt this was a lucky find and fit my budget.

I would not worry about issues with aluminum heads on a iron block - they have those issues pretty much worked out with modern head gaskets. About the only issue is paying attention to valve train clearance adjustments on solid lifter cams due to the different expansion coefficients.

The "cool" factor is kind of in the eye of the beholder. To some nothing will beat a good old school 427 FE with all correct, period parts. To others, only the latest in modern technology and maximum available HP and torque floats their boat. I fell in the latter area and wanted to use vintage parts - I guess I re-purposed them.

for my 2 cents and from your earlier posts wanting a torquey motor, a nice 428 block with a 4.125 ro 4.25 crank, aluminum heads and intake would work really well. If you want a little more HP and revs then finding a good 427 SO or CO block would be the next step up. And then if you want to knock 75 to 100 lbs off the car and bump the cubes and HP up even further then going with an aluminum block may be warranted.

[Detroit Bill]

I can see where I am going. If you are going to have a good mid life crisis you might as well go with the one with the biggest tits.

[Tommy]

Ahhhh. A midlife trophy motor. There are lots of them around here. You'll recognize them from the threads about dyno slips rather than track times.

[lippy]

The Pond is a new block, side-oiler, improved design (siamesed cylinders), and aluminum. The 428 probably came out of a truck and is iron. If it's a good one (and I'm sure it is), the 428 is about 100# heavier and $4-5k cheaper. The 428 can handle 600HP+ if you want it to. The Pond block can handle more. I went with the Pond because I thought it would be cool to have a side-oiler. But honestly, for practical purposes, the 428 is just as good.

[blykins]

You gotta watch about how much hp you put through a factory block. The factory 352, 390, and 428 blocks are known to split between the cam tunnel and mains with sustained hp and rpm. There are many, many variables about where that line of no return is, but personally, I would not build a 600 hp FE with a factory block. If I did, I would convert to cross-bolted ProGram billet main caps and do some other things to the block....and then you're adding a couple grand into the price....and you still have a 45 year old block.

Also, with a factory 352 or 390 block, you're basically looking at a max of 460 cubes or so. With a 428 block, you're looking at a max of 475 cubes. Both are those are with 4.375" stroke cranks. As soon as you switch to an aftermarket block, you're looking at maximum displacements of 510-530 cubes depending on the block.

On the hp thing, it would vary from dyno to dyno. Not insinuating anything here, not making any claims, but you will often see 5-6% (and higher) differences between dynos, based on the dyno brand, who's running it, where they have their weather station in relation to their makeup air, etc. So the point there is to not get hung up on numbers.

It is very hard to tell the difference between 20-30 hp in a Cobra as they are hand-fulls at WOT. It might be easier if you started with 300 and added 20, but if you start with 600 and add 20, you're not gonna be able to tell the difference.

My advice is that if you have the money, either go with a factory 427 S/O block and build it to be a 427, or buy a Pond block and go with a 482/496/510.

[AC Ventura]

Originally Posted by blykins

My advice is that if you have the money, either go with a factory 427 S/O block and build it to be a 427, or buy a Pond block and go with a 482/496/510.

There seems to be a trend among engine builders to promote 482's over 427's. Surely the 427 produces more than enough for most Cobra drivers to handle and is the right engine. So what's prompted upping the ante. New 427 Crank availability?

Also I read the Pond alloy block saves 60lbs over the iron FE. But is that with the 8 steel liners installed?

If so it sounds like an alloy everything Pond FE is on a parr weight wise with the 450 lb iron 302 efi, that I currently have installed.