Live in PA, looking at a BDR in Kansas

[chrisd0729]

Morning gents, hoping someone in the KS area can help with a few questions here... I live in PA and looking at a Backdraft in KS and concerned with title transfer. PA is a bit more strict than KS and I'm hoping to avoid weeks or months of registration hell.

The car is currently registered as "2015 Backdraft 1965 RT3 Replica" and there is no title. Are the KS folks here seeing the same thing?

1) Has anyone bought a Cobra from KS and registered in another state? Any issues?
2) What type of title/registration paperwork did you get from the KS seller?

thanks

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by chrisd0729

Morning gents, hoping someone in the KS area can help with a few questions here... I live in PA and looking at a Backdraft in KS and concerned with title transfer. PA is a bit more strict than KS and I'm hoping to avoid weeks or months of registration hell.

The car is currently registered as "2015 Backdraft 1965 RT3 Replica" and there is no title. Are the KS folks here seeing the same thing?

1) Has anyone bought a Cobra from KS and registered in another state? Any issues?
2) What type of title/registration paperwork did you get from the KS seller?

thanks

As I stated earlier, it depends on exactly (100% verbatim) how the current title reads, and if they used a state issued VIN, or the VIN supplied by BDR.

If a Kansas state issued VIN, PA will title the car as the current title reads and you will be responsible for all local/county inspections. You will not be able to title as a special constructed, or at least as of 2 years ago, you could not, and forget about collectors resgistrations.

if issued a Kansas title with the BDR VIN, you should be able to retitle under the PA "Special Construction" title/registration process. This is the best way to go in PA for any kit car (Yes, a BDR is a kit car, same as a new CSX6000 series)..........

As stated numerous times, attempts to get get a title like the Kansas title redone as a "vintage" anything will earn you an anal probing by the PA State Police, who are not as stupid or naive as you might want to think and have seen and heard it all long before you even thought to purchase your car.

Wyoming titles/registrations, Alabama title houses, etc, have all been found out by the MVS in Harrisburg. Before attempting to circumnavigate the "Special Construction" title procedure, ask yourself if you can afford to watch your car impounded and crushed, think long and hard on this one.

Yes, really.

[chrisd0729]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

As I stated earlier, it depends on exactly (100% verbatim) how the current title reads, and if they used a state issued VIN, or the VIN supplied by BDR.

If a Kansas state issued VIN, PA will title the car as the current title reads and you will be responsible for all local/county inspections. You will not be able to title as a special constructed, or at least as of 2 years ago, you could not, and forget about collectors resgistrations.

if issued a Kansas title with the BDR VIN, you should be able to retitle under the PA "Special Construction" title/registration process. This is the best way to go in PA for any kit car (Yes, a BDR is a kit car, same as a new CSX6000 series)..........

As stated numerous times, attempts to get get a title like the Kansas title redone as a "vintage" anything will earn you an anal probing by the PA State Police, who are not as stupid or naive as you might want to think and have seen and heard it all long before you even thought to purchase your car.

Wyoming titles/registrations, Alabama title houses, etc, have all been found out by the MVS in Harrisburg. Before attempting to circumnavigate the "Special Construction" title procedure, ask yourself if you can afford to watch your car impounded and crushed, think long and hard on this one.

Yes, really.

Bill, thanks for the additional input, I completely respect your experience and opinion. I almost PM'd you today to see if you had time for a call and a few questions on this as I got more info from the dealer helping sell it. The PA titling process you helped us understand completely makes sense and I'm not questoining it. In fact, my questions here are to help support the process you explained.

My question on this thread for the local folks in Kansas is more around the KS paperwork. I'm being told the owner doesn't have a title because KS handles these cars differently than PA and I'll only get a title after the sale is executed via Bill of Sale. Based on my experience buying cars and transferring to PA, as well as your input, I'm only trying to understand what kind of paperwork I can get from the KS seller and KS DMV. Based on the challenges in understanding this specific car, the seller, the registration/paperwork, etc. I'm ready to throw the towel in and just keep shopping. It's just a bummer, it's exactly what I've been searching for and it's being sold via a reputable BDR dealer... just been difficult to work through the process and get the detals.

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

As I stated earlier, it depends on exactly (100% verbatim) how the current title reads, and if they used a state issued VIN, or the VIN supplied by BDR.

If a Kansas state issued VIN, PA will title the car as the current title reads and you will be responsible for all local/county inspections. You will not be able to title as a special constructed, or at least as of 2 years ago, you could not, and forget about collectors resgistrations.

if issued a Kansas title with the BDR VIN, you should be able to retitle under the PA "Special Construction" title/registration process. This is the best way to go in PA for any kit car (Yes, a BDR is a kit car, same as a new CSX6000 series)..........

As stated numerous times, attempts to get get a title like the Kansas title redone as a "vintage" anything will earn you an anal probing by the PA State Police, who are not as stupid or naive as you might want to think and have seen and heard it all long before you even thought to purchase your car.

Wyoming titles/registrations, Alabama title houses, etc, have all been found out by the MVS in Harrisburg. Before attempting to circumnavigate the "Special Construction" title procedure, ask yourself if you can afford to watch your car impounded and crushed, think long and hard on this one.

Yes, really.

Bill,

We have seen New York State looking VERY hard at cars coming in with Montana titles, especially cars from Montana LLCs....you know, the ones you set up for $500 via an agent in MT. so you save the $5000 plus in sales tax? There were more Ferraris registered per capita in Montana last year than any other state. Do you REALLY think any of those cars were EVER actually in Montana? The DMVs in other states are not stupid and as has been proven they even monitor this website. In NYS it is all about the sales tax and they are not gonna miss out on thousands of revenue dollars!

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

Bill,

We have seen New York State looking VERY hard at cars coming in with Montana titles, especially cars from Montana LLCs....you know, the ones you set up for $500 via an agent in MT. so you save the $5000 plus in sales tax? There were more Ferraris registered per capita in Montana last year than any other state. Do you REALLY think any of those cars were EVER actually in Montana? The DMVs in other states are not stupid and as has been proven they even monitor this website. In NYS it is all about the sales tax and they are not gonna miss out on thousands of revenue dollars!

Yup, NYS, Kansas, NJ, PA, California and more have all shown they read sites such as ours. In PA I actually had someone from the PA MVS/DMV in Harrisburg and the owner of a car coming in to the state reach out to me asking about a car being registered as a "1965" back in 2011 (the VIN was not state issued and appeared to be made up randomly) because they could not get an specific answer from another states MVS office (Idaho if I remember correctly)..Of course the person calling had been out to see me about one of mine, so knew I should be able to respond...Took me a few days to track down the information, and the title process was put on hold and then switched from "Antique to "Special Registration" and was finished rather quickly. Owner still happily driving the car today.

Originally Posted by chrisd0729

Bill, thanks for the additional input, I completely respect your experience and opinion. I almost PM'd you today to see if you had time for a call and a few questions on this as I got more info from the dealer helping sell it. The PA titling process you helped us understand completely makes sense and I'm not questoining it. In fact, my questions here are to help support the process you explained.

My question on this thread for the local folks in Kansas is more around the KS paperwork. I'm being told the owner doesn't have a title because KS handles these cars differently than PA and I'll only get a title after the sale is executed via Bill of Sale. Based on my experience buying cars and transferring to PA, as well as your input, I'm only trying to understand what kind of paperwork I can get from the KS seller and KS DMV. Based on the challenges in understanding this specific car, the seller, the registration/paperwork, etc. I'm ready to throw the towel in and just keep shopping. It's just a bummer, it's exactly what I've been searching for and it's being sold via a reputable BDR dealer... just been difficult to work through the process and get the detals.

Bullschit!!!!! Kansas is not difficult state to title a kit car in, as long as you follow the rules and regulations.

First of course is taxes, and Kansas has their own specific form(s) for this

CLICK HERE

Page 48,49, and the top of page 50 to be specific

In the case of the car you are looking at, it sounds like the original owner decided to not pay the initial taxes on the car, nor any annual taxes on the car, most likely borrowing or renting a used car dealer tag.

NOW, if that is the case, I'd be asking about the original MSO/MCO for the car and not just a notarized bill of sale for the car. As both must now be dully signed off on and notarized. Is the seller (not the dealer) the original owner? If not, and the original MSO/MCO is floating around with the original owner, then you may end up on the short end of a stick one day when the original owner decides to take his MSO/MCO and either report the car stolen, or title something else with it. Doesn't sound plausible, look up the term "air car" + "Cobra"..........

You now have some additional homework to do on the car that must be pulling at your heartstrings at a price "too good to pass up", even with the dealer added value (consignment sales shops always add to the actual price the seller wants).

Again, hope you find this helpful.

Bill S.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

Bill,

We have seen New York State looking VERY hard at cars coming in with Montana titles, especially cars from Montana LLCs....you know, the ones you set up for $500 via an agent in MT. so you save the $5000 plus in sales tax? There were more Ferraris registered per capita in Montana last year than any other state. Do you REALLY think any of those cars were EVER actually in Montana? The DMVs in other states are not stupid and as has been proven they even monitor this website. In NYS it is all about the sales tax and they are not gonna miss out on thousands of revenue dollars!

The Montana LLC thing has been going on for years. In fact, I just saw a picture of a New Ford GT with Montana plates. From a guy I think ought to know better. Colorado about 10 years ago went around looking for the big motor homes and dinged the owners with a fine plus back registrations plus interest. Montana is also a favorite haven for private planes and big boats (Montana doesn't have a lake big enough for a Cigarette boat!)

[A-Snake]

I'm being told the owner doesn't have a title because KS handles these cars differently than PA and I'll only get a title after the sale is executed via Bill of Sale.

As Bill said, BS. Kansas is a title state. The seller must provide a title, then a Bill of Sale is completed.

No title? Walk away.

[studebaker53]

Agree with above...no title...walk away. Find a different car.

[Cashburn]

He does not have the title because he has a car loan.

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by Cashburn

He does not have the title because he has a car loan.

He has a title that shows a lien. When the loan is paid, the bank will provide a lien release.
He should be able to show you the title in his name with the lien listed.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Cashburn

He does not have the title because he has a car loan.

Then paying off the loan should get him the title.

Yet something has to be in writing and guarantees need to be made, also in writing, with penalties put in place and cash held back until a clean title can be produced.

[twobjshelbys]

Do the transaction at the bank with seller present. You give money to the bank, bank releases title.

[1795]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Do the transaction at the bank with seller present. You give money to the bank, bank releases title.

Whenever I have sold a vehicle that had a lien on the title, we went to the bank that had the lien and the buyer paid me, I paid off the loan, the title was signed over and the bank provided them with a lien release right then. It is bad practice to wait for a lien release. Once the seller has the money in hand there is no incentive other than good character to send a lien release to the buyer.

[Mark IV]

In some states the title is physically held by the lender and supplied to the "owner" when the lien is satisfied. In such case doing the transaction at the bank works well and the bank can notarize the bill of sale and the title if required. In some situations the MSO for a new vehicle is also held by the bank providing floor planning to the dealer and the MSO is released to be supplied to the retail purchaser when the dealer "pays off" the floor plan amount.

As 1795 indicated once paid a seller is only bound by a personal code of ethics to timely complete the paperwork. Over many years in the retail automotive business I have seen many sellers (i.e. customers trading in a vehicle) that failed to provide required documents to the dealer because they were driving their new car and well, screw the dealer. Don't be the dealer.

[joyridin']

In Ohio, it can get a bit tricky. The bank holds the lean on the title, but there is no physical title. Only a copy so you can get plates etc. When you pay off the loan, they release the title. You have to take the letter from the bank to the title bureau and pay $25 for the title. The last time I did this, it took about 7 days.

This depends on the bank etc. I would not touch that car without a clean title in his hand. Years ago, I had a buddy that bought a car from a guy that owed money to the bank for the car. At that time, the bank held the title. They did everything as described above. Went to the bank, paid off the loan, and he got a notarized title for the car. 3 days later, he goes to the title bureau to get the title put in his name. The old owner had run to the title bureau and claimed he lost the title. They gave him a new one. Now it was his car again and it was paid off. Big mess. My buddy ended up getting his money back for the car.